A question for Buddhists.

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

You really think everyone just makes up what sounds good to them and they are all right?

It isn't about making up that which sounds good or being right, it's about what makes sense to each individual person.

The understanding of Koans is an individual experience as shown in the two verses from the ' Platform Sutra '.

Zen is not dependant on written words, it depends on your own intuition.

[jonesboy]

Is that what your teacher is telling you?

The koans are teachings of which the meaning is understood once you experience it or as taught by ones teacher.

To say it is okay based on everyone's intuition at any level is a disservice. That would lead a lot of people going in circles and dead ends. Zen like all traditions is teacher based.

What you are saying is more new age than true zen.


A kōan (公案?)/ˈkoʊ.ɑːn/; Chinese: 公案; pinyin: gōng'àn; Korean: 공안 (kong'an); Vietnamese: công án) is a story, dialogue, question, or statement, which is used in Zen practice to provoke the "great doubt" and test a student's progress in Zen practice.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kōan

[sky]

Do not accept any of my words on faith,
Believing them just because I said them.
Be like an analyst buying gold, who cuts, burns,*
And critically examines his product for authenticity.
Only accept what passes the test*
By proving useful and beneficial in your life.
The Buddha (Jnanasara-samuccaya)

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

Do not accept any of my words on faith,
Believing them just because I said them.
Be like an analyst buying gold, who cuts, burns,*
And critically examines his product for authenticity.
Only accept what passes the test*
By proving useful and beneficial in your life.
The Buddha (Jnanasara-samuccaya)

You also notice that the Buddha was the teacher. Saying look, don't just take my word for it. Practice what I am telling you, practice the techniques I am giving you and see how they improve the quality of your life.

Not just go off on your own and think you have arrived because this is your experience. Yes there is always more and greater depth as the Buddha himself represents.

Koans usually consist of recorded sayings or stories of Zen masters interacting with students. Koans and their related literature form the core texts of Zen. They are condensed expressions of essential nature itself.

Koan-introspection is the practice of holding a koan within body and mind, examining it, pondering it, keeping it warm until achieving intimacy with it. What I mean by ‘achieving intimacy’ with a koan is that the wisdom or prajna within the koan effectively evokes the corresponding wisdom within the practitioner. It is similar to the successful communication of thoughts, ideas, and knowledge in the realm of ordinary everyday life; one person has effectively transmitted their meaning, and the other has correctly understood. However, the wisdom that the Zen koans are intended to transmit is ultimately beyond ordinary intellectual understanding.

Like scripture, poetry, mythology, and the sacred lore of the ages, if you do not grasp it with the whole of your being you do not grasp it at all.

http://flatbedsutra.com/flatbedsutrazenblogger/?p=3205

All the best

[sky]

Quote 'if you do not grasp it with the whole of your being you do not grasp it at all.'

Strange that you should say that because the Buddha said ' The goal is to practise non- grasping of anything including his teachings......


The best way to learn is to do it in the best way for you.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

Quote 'if you do not grasp it with the whole of your being you do not grasp it at all.'

Strange that you should say that because the Buddha said ' The goal is to practise non- grasping of anything including his teachings......


The best way to learn is to do it in the best way for you.

Again you fail to realize what that means. Like I mentioned earlier a Koan is a means to check on a students progression. When you experience or you could say grasp it with an understanding of your being.. you understand the koan. Until then a teacher is needed to guide you. It is not about holding on to something or grasping at something.

Listen sky please stop.

You first talked about how Buddhism was about observing and how one would not achieve nothingness.

Then when I showed you that Nothingness is really referring to emptiness you debated me on that. I showed you multiple quotes verifying what I said.

You then wanted to debate me about Koans and how someone is to use them. Again you had a wrong understanding of them.

I would also say that what is best for you without a teacher can lead to a lot of issues. People will often do what they think is best and waste decades of spiritual practice.

Do you have a Zen teacher?

If you don't then you don't practice Zen.

[RyanWind]

If you are observing ones thoughts, that is mindfulness, not Buddha mind, non-dual awareness aka Rigpa.

Yet when one is for a better word residing in Ripga within oneself there is no subject and object of yourself.

That is what it means to reside in the flows, not observing ones thoughts and watching them float on by but to be one with the flow, the energy that makes up everything "non-dual awareness".

Because you are not observing but instead in a state of being within the empty nature of the flow.. Maybe that is what you are referring to with your Nothingness.

Nice post!

[sky]

[quote=jonesboy]Again you fail to realize what that means. Like I mentioned earlier a Koan is a means to check on a students progression. When you experience or you could say grasp it with an understanding of your being.. you understand the koan. Until then a teacher is needed to guide you. It is not about holding on to something or grasping at something.

Listen sky please stop.

You first talked about how Buddhism was about observing and how one would not achieve nothingness.

Then when I showed you that Nothingness is really referring to emptiness you debated me on that. showed you multiple quotes verifying what I said.

You then wanted to debate me about Koans and how someone is to use them. Again you had a wrong understanding of them.

I would also say that what is best for you without a teacher can lead to a lot of issues. People will often do what they think is best and waste decades of spiritual practice.
I
Do you have a Zen teacher?

If you don't then you don't practice Zen.[/QUOTE



I know what I practice, it's me who practices, and I practice in my way.
As for debating with you, I was not debating I was expressing MY understanding, you have yours I have mine... and that's what matters to me, not what others understand. I know where I am and I know where I'm going for now and when my realization changes as all is in constant flux then I will be ready.

[jonesboy]

Good luck on your path sky.

[CSEe]

For years i am hoping to debate with any Buddhism teacher or Master....anyone intetested?...is solely for my learning process