A question for Buddhists.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

Thanks Tom, I do understand that Theravada and Mahayana teach Sunyata to mean ' emptiness ' but Zen use ' Sunyata ' to mean ' Nothingness'....

Huineng taught that wu-i-wu ( nothingness) is true purity.

Do you have a link for that?

[jonesboy]

For instance, Alan Watts writes: "whether one looks longingly toward 'non-being' (wu) or cultivates 'emptiness' (sunyata), the principle involved is the same" (82).

Nothingness (wu-i-wu) is the same as emptiness (sunyata) and is true "purity" for Hui-neng. According to D. T. Suzuki, "It is the negation of all qualities, a state of absolute non-ness" yet is not misconceived as a separate entity outside of a perceiver engaged in "the pure act of seeing." This "seeing" is quintessential To Zen. It is satori – seeing into one's inner, true nature – and thus "seeing into the ultimate nature of things" – perceiving the true Mind. This seeing is termed chien-hsing ("to look into the nature [of the mind]")(159-61). Seeing is also called Prajna (wisdom), or at least seeing is with the "eye of Prajna" and Prajna is what enables one to see (178). Prajna allows one to grasp sunyata, the emptiness of all things, and is itself "knowledge of the highest order permitted to the human mind, for it is the spark of the ultimate constituent of all things." This ultimate constituent, the sine qua non, the quintessence, is hsing or Mind

http://alangullette.com/essays/philo/nothing.htm

They are the same thing. Above is a good article.

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by Ironbear

What is Buddhism exactly? What does it mean to be a Buddhist? As a person who has been involved in martial arts for a long time I have only witnessed and heard about Buddhism through names of various martial arts techniques I.E "Bowing to Buddha" and "Ring of Karma".

I know little of Buddhism and would like to more about it. I would also like to know why Buddhism and martial arts seems to be so intertwined (I know it originated in shoalin temples) and how Buddhism would impact a martial artist.

Awareness and Consciousness, like Knowledge or Wisdom, are things that can become greater. One can become greater in these things. The thing is though, awareness and consciousness are not made greater by acquiring things. They are only made greater by practice. You have to do it, not read about it. You have to practice it, not learn it. It's like wanting to be a great tennis player. You have to play the game, not read or think about it. In a lot of ways, thinking has nothing to do with becoming a great tennis player. It's about practice. Increasing one's awareness and consciousness is also about practice, not learning.

Everyone has a different level of consciousness. Because of this, we all experience the world differently. The world Buddha experienced is not the world we experience because he had achieved a higher level of awareness and consciousness through many lifetimes of practice.

The basic practice is to "wake up." Being able to wake up and how long you can maintain being awake is a result of how long you have practiced it. When one is awake, one is highly disciplined and focused. So this would impact a martial artist.

The path has been taught in many ways through many teachers. In this thread are a lot of quotes from teachers trying to convey what it is you should practice or experience. Most of it sounds pretty mysterious and un-doable.

If I was going to explain it to somebody new at it I don't think concepts of emptiness or non-being are very helpful at all since one merely takes that in with the ego and then the ego tries to understand or do it or get somewhere.

It's actually a very simple path yet next to impossible for most people. You and me and everybody else lives in a bubble of self. Our thoughts run endlessly in our heads and we believe we are the source of these thoughts and they are conveying what we think and believe etc. If I ask you what your favorite food is or color is you will think and come up with an answer and you will believe what you said is real and a truth about you.

In reality, your body and the thoughts it produces have nothing to do with you. You are something separate from your mind. You are a consciousness that is captivated and wholly immersed in the mind produced by the brain.

So that is the path, waking up to whats real. The awareness that you are not the thoughts in your mind. You are not your opinions or beliefs, or thoughts. You are that which is untouched by all of that. So you watch, you are aware of what is, right now. And you put away all that is not you and are then empty and still and more aware and your consciousness changes for a moment or an eternity depending how long and with what effort you have pursued the truth.



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hare krishna chant - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX3HAhcLYL8

[mulyo13]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

They are the same thing. Above is a good article.

He also underlining there's difference definition/term in nothingness

Here we must carefully distinguish between terms. Nonbeing and being are dialectically interdependent, relative terms. Nothing has usually been confused in the West with nonbeing, though in the east it is seen differently. Nonbeing is "parasitic" on being; it is a negative term deriving its meaning from the positive. But in the east, nothing is what gives meaning to the positive in the first place, as we shall see later. Absolute nothingness is what is meant by "nothing" or "nothingness" or "no-thingness." (Although the latter term is somewhat derivative from the idea of "thing" and "thingness," I use it only because I am used to thinking of things, and like most westerners I can best understand Nothing in relative terms, all the while keeping in mind that this is not an exact understanding – but only an experiential understanding is a true one, so that all conceptual understanding is necessarily inexact.) Absolute nothingness is thus distinct from relative nothingness or mere nonbeing (which is, again, parasitic). Thus the westerner Paul Tillich understands nothing only as derivative nonbeing:

Nonbeing is dependent on the being it negates…. The ontological status of nonbeing as nonbeing is dependent on being. The character of the negation of being is determined by that in being which is negated. (40)

Yet we must allow that not all of our sources use these terms strictly, and it is necessary to understand what is meant by their terms. For instance, Alan Watts writes: "whether one looks longingly toward 'non-being' (wu) or cultivates 'emptiness' (sunyata), the principle involved is the same"

I belived the wu yi wu(無一物) is from Platform Sutra.

Shenxiu wrote:
身是菩提树 (Shen Shi Pu Ti Shu)
心如明镜台 (Xin Ru Ming Jing Tai)
时时勤拂试 (Shi Shi Qin Fu Shi)
莫使惹尘埃 (Mo Shi Re Chen Ai)

The body is the Bodhi tree
The mind is like a bright mirror stand
Moment to moment, diligently wipe
To let no dust alight

Huineng reply:

菩提本无树 (Pu Ti Ben Wu Shu)
明镜亦非台 (Ming Jing Yi Fei Tai)
本来无一物 (Ben Lai Wu Yi Wu)
何处惹尘埃 (He Chu Re Chen Ai)

Bodhi originally has no tree
The bright mirror also has no stand
Originally there is not a thing
Where can dust alight?

Wu yi wu(無一物) in English is not a thing. English is not my native language, but as far as I know, not a thing can't be replaced with nothing. It have different meaning, and don't forget, it's a poem.

Buddhism teach awareness and awareness always witnessing a condition/state even in no-mind or not a thing state. Nothingness state will never be achieved.

[jonesboy]

Shenxiu wrote:
身是菩提树 (Shen Shi Pu Ti Shu)
心如明镜台 (Xin Ru Ming Jing Tai)
时时勤拂试 (Shi Shi Qin Fu Shi)
莫使惹尘埃 (Mo Shi Re Chen Ai)

The body is the Bodhi tree
The mind is like a bright mirror stand
Moment to moment, diligently wipe
To let no dust alight

Huineng reply:

菩提本无树 (Pu Ti Ben Wu Shu)
明镜亦非台 (Ming Jing Yi Fei Tai)
本来无一物 (Ben Lai Wu Yi Wu)
何处惹尘埃 (He Chu Re Chen Ai)

Bodhi originally has no tree
The bright mirror also has no stand
Originally there is not a thing
Where can dust alight?

Bodhi aka enlightened mind has no tree.
The mirror or the mind has no stand. You can't find either one.
There is no "thing" that one can point to and say yes this is it.
The dust is your thoughts. They have no place to land. Meaning they flow through you, you don't hold on to them.

Really different than the concept of nothingness but I can see where people would get confused.

[jonesboy]

Here let me share with you what my experience has been with what is called in Dzogchen Rigpa.

The posts below is me talking about how no thoughts is part of rigpa and then going on to share what that is like. This is from another site but also goes towards your comments about observing and Buddhism.

[quote name="Jonesboy" post="665979" timestamp="1452122797"]
You are right Wilfred. I was not being clear with my no thought posts.

Rigpa is not getting lost in them, not attaching to them as they flow through as one is thinking.

For example one will have a thought during a conversation, Rigpa is not thinking about what to say or getting lost in the daydream of trying to relate to someone's experience.

When one is not having a conversation one can just reside without thoughts, in the flow of that which is.

Forgive me for no making that clearer in my previous statements.

Next I said:

If you are in a state of observing ones thoughts there is still a subject and an object and you are not in the Natural State.

Rigpa is when the observing/thoughts go away and it is just the flow. The ground the base which it all flows from.

From my earlier post:

Found this description in The Twenty-one Little Nails, the root text from the Zhang-Zhung Nya-Gyud, pointing to the difference between Rigpa and the "nature of mind", rather than "noticing mind"...

As for recognizing the Nature of Mind as distinct from mind, (there are four considerations regarding the Nature of Mind:)

1) it is without thoughts,

2) it becomes the basis of everything,

3) it is a neutral state (displaying neither virtue nor vice), and

4) everything possible originates from it and this is unceasing.


If you are observing thoughts you are "noticing mind" and not in the Natural State.

I have also mentioned emptiness of mind and how one moves beyond "noticing mind"

[quote name="Jonesboy" post="664895" timestamp="1451759607"]

Eventually one moves beyond observing. Silence fills ones mind, the energy/thoughts flow through without grasping but they are you, as in the flow. It is a being not an observing. Eventually you are the clouds and the sky and the birds as them, not observing them.

Emptiness with reference to thoughts is that all thoughts are energy. All things are energy and like clouds they seem to have form but in truth they are empty. The more we grasp, believe in our thoughts/ give them form the more suffering we experience. So emptiness of thoughts is realizing that thoughts are just energy, empty expect for what we grasp at.

As one progresses one is able to experience all things as oneness and the emptiness nature of things.

Aka void=form and form=void.

It is a state of being not observing.

[quote name="Jonesboy" post="664920" timestamp="1451764038"]

Rigpa and Mind


In Dzogchen, a fundamental point of practice is to distinguish rigpa from sems (citta, (grasping) mind).[8] According to the 14th Dalai Lama, "sems is the mind which is temporarily obscured and distorted by thoughts based upon the dualistic perceptions of subject and object."[9] Rigpa is pure awareness free from such distortions.[9] Cittata, the nature of mind, is the inseparable unity of awareness and emptiness, or clarity and emptiness, which is the basis for all the ordinary perceptions, thoughts and emotions of the ordinary mind.[web 1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa


Homage to the Guru, the teacher.

The View and Meditation of Dzogchen can be explained in many, many ways, but simply sustaining the essence of present awareness includes them all.
Your mind won’t be found elsewhere.
It is the very nature of this moment-to-moment thinking.
Regard nakedly the essence of this thinking and you find present awareness, right where you are.

Why chase after thoughts, which are superficial ripples of present awareness?
Rather look directly into the naked, empty nature of thoughts; then there is no duality, no observer, and nothing observed.
Simply rest in this transparent, nondual present awareness.
Make yourself at home in the natural state of pure presence, just being, not doing anything in particular.
Present awareness is empty, open, and luminous; not a concrete substance, yet not nothing.
Empty, yet it is perfectly cognizant, lucid, aware.
As if magically, not by causing it to be aware, but innately aware, awareness continuously functions.
These two sides of present awareness or Rigpa — its emptiness and its cognizance (lucidity) — are inseparable.
Emptiness and luminosity (knowing) are inseparable.
They are formless, as if nothing whatsoever, ungraspable, unborn, undying; yet spacious, vivid, buoyant.

Jamgön Kongtrül Lodrö Thayé (1813–1899), the first Jamgon Rinpoche, was a founder of the Rimé movement of Tibetan Buddhism and author of more than one hundred books.

http://freddieyam.co...n-kongtrul.html

If you are observing ones thoughts, that is mindfulness, not Buddha mind, non-dual awareness aka Rigpa.

Yet when one is for a better word residing in Ripga within oneself there is no subject and object of yourself.

That is what it means to reside in the flows, not observing ones thoughts and watching them float on by but to be one with the flow, the energy that makes up everything "non-dual awareness".

Because you are not observing but instead in a state of being within the empty nature of the flow.. Maybe that is what you are referring to with your Nothingness.

[sky]

The body is the bodhi tree, we need the body to realise the dharma.
The mind is like a bright mirror stand, the mind shows us what is reflected into it. Our perception of reality is clouded when there's dust (defilements) on the mind. Being mindfull moment to moment stops the dust from polluting the mind.

Only from a dust free mind can the mirror reflect perfectly and allow us to perceive reality.

[jonesboy]

Bodhi originally has no tree
The bright mirror also has no stand
Originally there is not a thing
Where can dust alight?

Originally Posted by sky123

The body is the bodhi tree, we need the body to realise the dharma.
The mind is like a bright mirror stand, the mind shows us what is reflected into it. Our perception of reality is clouded when there's dust (defilements) on the mind. Being mindfull moment to moment stops the dust from polluting the mind.

Only from a dust free mind can the mirror reflect perfectly and allow us to perceive reality.

Why do we need the body to realize the Dharma.
Doesn't it say that Bodhi has no tree and the Mind has no stand? Yet you are saying that one needs both.
Where does it mention being mindful moment to moment?

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Bodhi originally has no tree
The bright mirror also has no stand
Originally there is not a thing
Where can dust alight?




Why do we need the body to realize the Dharma.
Doesn't it say that Bodhi has no tree and the Mind has no stand? Yet you are saying that one needs both.
Where does it mention being mindful moment to moment?

These verses are Koans so you interpret them in your own way.
The first verse has to be practised before the second verse is realised..

[jonesboy]

You really think everyone just makes up what sounds good to them and they are all right?