The Unseen World

[django]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Those are not opposites in my opinion. Somebody who seeks some kind of metaphysical spiritual goal through some method or technique is exactly the same as somebody who tries to get rid of all desire to achieve some metaphysical spiritual goal.

The realization of the "goal" is instant and complete in this now in one who understands the reality of what is "given up" and what is "received."

That's the thing, both can be true or false. Depends what is known or what the used terms actually are in those using the terms.

Having a singular passionate drive towards this one thing, this one goal, is great if that "thing" that "goal" is this loving nonjudgmental conflict free being state that is always kind to itself and others. The goal and what we are moment to moment is one and the same, or should be. If you are not what you seek to be, more self understanding and awareness is needed I guess.

I don’t believe in any instant realisations of any authentic goals. You can’t remove obscurations in an instant.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by django

I don’t believe in any instant realisations of any authentic goals. You can’t remove obscurations in an instant.

Why not?

Haven’t you experienced this yourself?

I’ve witnessed myself and others where I’ve asked them the ‘right’ question and they’ve blasted the whole containment in a few minutes. The Realization coming from that clarity.

[django]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Why not?

Haven’t you experienced this yourself?

I’ve witnessed myself and others where I’ve asked them the ‘right’ question and they’ve blasted the whole containment in a few minutes. The Realization coming from that clarity.

It really depends on the goal. I want to remove all mental and emotional obstructions as well as all karma, to allow the ‘other’ to flow. Buddha nature, higher mind, higher consciousness, whatever it’s called. This is simply not possible in an instant. Beliefs in The nature of reality can change in an instant, but belief in a conscious concept doesn’t change the underlying substrate imo. You can fully believe you are at one with the universe but your belief doesn’t actually make it so.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by django

It really depends on the goal. I want to remove all mental and emotional obstructions as well as all karma, to allow the ‘other’ to flow. Buddha nature, higher mind, higher consciousness, whatever it’s called. This is simply not possible in an instant. Beliefs in The nature of reality can change in an instant, but belief in a conscious concept doesn’t change the underlying substrate imo. You can fully believe you are at one with the universe but your belief doesn’t actually make it so.

I see what your saying.

It’s a totality of experience, so what your sharing makes sense.

Without holding onto beliefs one can move through obstructions faster, so the Realization becomes ‘clear’ with regards to a more grounded connection to the ‘flow’.

Without goals and full presence, you can open up anything if the activation occurrred in some way.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by django

I don’t believe in any instant realisations of any authentic goals. You can’t remove obscurations in an instant.

Here I would like to introduce an idea from the book "The Lamp of Mahamudra"
by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol

THREE TYPES OF PEOPLE

Whether or not points are easily comprehended depends upon the mental capacities of individual people. These can be divided into three degrees.

People who give rise to understanding, experience, and realization by merely being shown a symbol or who, in one instant, quickly perfect the qualities without having to exert themselves through hardship are called the "instantaneous type." These are great beings who have realization through former training.

People whose qualities of experience and realization increase and decrease without sequential order or without being fixed as high or low are called the "skipping the grades type," those with middling capacity.

Other general or ordinary people of the type who ascend in definite progressive stages, according to their degree of diligence, are called the "gradual type," which includes all ordinary people.

*

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by django

It really depends on the goal.

That's right. Like the goal to have no goals can be achieved instantly.

A good traveler has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving.”
― Lao Tzu

If your goal is to accept now as it is without conflict, one would
drop all goals as they all create a conflict between what is and
what I seek or desire it to be.

Be content with what you have;
rejoice in the way things are.
When you realize there is nothing lacking,
the whole world belongs to you.”
― Lao Tzu

the origin of suffering: it is this craving [taṇhā, "thirst"] which leads to re-becoming, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for becoming, craving for disbecoming Buddha - The Four Noble Truths

Enlightenment (called bodhi in Indian Buddhism, or satori in Zen Buddhism) is when a Buddhist finds the truth about life and stops being reborn because he has reached Nirvana.

The Pali word nibbana (nirvana in Sanskrit) was first used by the Buddha to describe the highest state of profound well-being a human is capable of attaining. The mind awakens from delusion, is liberated from bondage, is cleansed of all its defilements, becomes entirely at peace, experiences the complete cessation of suffering, and is no longer reborn.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

I can relate to what your sharing. Individual quoted passages do not stand alone, they work together as a ‘whole’ and by understanding of our direct experience, you see the contradictions that arise in the teachings alone, if that is only where your looking, the truth of you as the experience within it all, won’t yet see yourself clearer beyond that one reference point. In this way it becomes an awareness, that each one fits together like a puzzle, but you are the puzzle in formation of experience understanding yourself as a ‘whole’, within it all. Once that understanding becomes you, it’s very difficult to isolate any one piece, because it all works together as we do in this mind/body relationship. If you do not understand yourself within the ‘whole’ context you will naturally pick out what ‘fits’ what you in your experience havent fully integrated as a whole awareness.

This the issue with coming from the practice perspective is everything is a description of what I've been though, and I can put that in my own words. I know this is often argued against, but I still believe I have a valuable contribution because of my experience.

Desire and need has shown me at the core of my own suffering and aversion, that it will contain you to ‘something’ still unaware it is contained. Where as all desire and aversion will allow for you to notice yourself as ‘a whole’ within the dynamics of everything, whether it’s good or not do good stuff. . It makes no difference, desire and need will contain, rather than allow for ‘free flow’ movements as things are. If one unplugs that ‘hold’ then you really begin to notice what is , more aware of deeper, more subtle containment. In this way you can see through ‘reasons’ why we do everything we do.

Because I studied Buddhist meditation, mindfulness, insight, vipassana, rather than read stuff about meditation, I don't know anything about all the things people talk about here, and no one here knows what I'm talking about. People think they do and say it's beginner stuff and all that, but for example, if I talk about breath meditation it is because many times I have sat in a bare dark room for many days and not many have done that sort of thing...


I've been through the grueling experience of formal meditation so I don't pretend to know something. Do you see what I mean? People start to make me wrong about things I understand from the long retreats I've undertaken.



The way I speak is like, sit upright and keep still for one hour feeling the breath without reacting, and you'll know the effort involved. Imagine doing that 11 times a day, day after day, for days and days; then imagine doing that 20 times. If you undertake that IRL then talk to me about effort. That's what I've done, which is why I believe I can make valuable contributions to the discussion. Others want me to be wrong and prove their point, but I can't prove my point - you can't get wet because I talk about water. I have to pour out the bucket on your head teehee.

The body is the temple, the mind becomes the outer space, the heart beats in union, when the mind and temple meet’

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Gem

Because I studied Buddhist meditation, mindfulness, insight, vipassana,

Do you remember when you first got interested in metaphysical/spiritual subjects? Like what age and how did it manifest? How did you get into Eastern Religions?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

That's right. Like the goal to have no goals can be achieved instantly.

A good traveler has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving.”
― Lao Tzu

If your goal is to accept now as it is without conflict, one would
drop all goals as they all create a conflict between what is and
what I seek or desire it to be.

Be content with what you have;
rejoice in the way things are.
When you realize there is nothing lacking,
the whole world belongs to you.”
― Lao Tzu

the origin of suffering: it is this craving [taṇhā, "thirst"] which leads to re-becoming, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for becoming, craving for disbecoming Buddha - The Four Noble Truths

Enlightenment (called bodhi in Indian Buddhism, or satori in Zen Buddhism) is when a Buddhist finds the truth about life and stops being reborn because he has reached Nirvana.

The Pali word nibbana (nirvana in Sanskrit) was first used by the Buddha to describe the highest state of profound well-being a human is capable of attaining. The mind awakens from delusion, is liberated from bondage, is cleansed of all its defilements, becomes entirely at peace, experiences the complete cessation of suffering, and is no longer reborn.

It is said that the meditation according to satipatthana is for the purification of beings, the resolution of sorrow and lamentation and the attainment of nirvana. Indeed it is said that this way is the only way, and I think that's a good point in the fundamental sense because dhamma is the way the universe works.


So, they say the final goal is nirvana, but the teacher told me, and I quote, 'if you're chasing enlightenment, you're running the wrong way'.


Such irony and contradiction, isn't it. What's it 'really mean'?, then you notice mind is generating the question, and there's the observation.


The quandry is with the path that leads to enlightenment, and we we're taught that the path goes from the gross, solid, easy-to-feel level of perception to the subtle, dynamic nuances of perception. The work was basically to feel the subtlest feeling you possibly can, and through that practice, enhance the sensitivity of the mind and thereby feel subtler levels yet. At some stage you experience beyond mind and matter, which could be at an early stage or a later stage. In 7 years, 7 months, 7 days, 7 hours as the sutta says, because it is not a destination is time, later on, but a matter of the truth that you are here right now and this is where existence lives.


The purification... slightly different thing, it takes a bit of time since the old kammas have to come to light, and that's destiny, the lifepath unfolding. It doesn't really require anything from you, so, as I was told at least, you just observe and dhamma does the rest.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Do you remember when you first got interested in metaphysical/spiritual subjects? Like what age and how did it manifest? How did you get into Eastern Religions?

I was raised Christian, and in my early twenties looked into Louise Hay and Shirley McLain sort of stuff in the late 80's. Then I traveled around with master for few years, but we were just normal people without the whole master/disciple thing going on, but I learned a hell of a lot anyway, and finally, after a number of years, stated taking retreats to learn Buddhist meditation. Now I've come back to pure physical work and serve as a fitness professional helping people to be strong and happy, and in some cases, not die. My motto is 'Lift heavy things and be happy'.