About forgiving

[Gemcrusader]

Sorry for another thread but anyway.

So today i was looking up somethin about it. Like in a dictionary. You know what it means but not totally so you look it up (or not)

What made this click, and what i also allready kinda realized but not fully is this:

Forgiving is not possible or has no effect if the perpetuator does NOT reckognize his actions.

The reason why a sorry can be so empty. And basicly means nothing. Its about letting quarter fall trough. If there are words and discussion, yet u feel the quarter is not going trough its meaningless.

[blackraven]

Originally Posted by Gemcrusader

Sorry for another thread but anyway.

So today i was looking up somethin about it. Like in a dictionary. You know what it means but not totally so you look it up (or not)

What made this click, and what i also allready kinda realized but not fully is this:

Forgiving is not possible or has no effect if the perpetuator does NOT reckognize his actions.

The reason why a sorry can be so empty. And basicly means nothing. Its about letting quarter fall trough. If there are words and discussion, yet u feel the quarter is not going trough its meaningless.

Gemcrusader - I don't believe that 'forgiving is not possible or has no effect if the perpetrator does not recognize his actions.' I have forgiven many people in my life to whom I feel I was hurt by, offended, disrespected or betrayed by. Some were sorry, but some never discussed past issues with me ever again or went by the way side. For those who remained in my life and never addressed wrong-doings or apologized, I still forgave them. It did take a very long time, but in the end holding onto grudges only hurt me. I was bitter, angry and harbored negative thoughts about those individuals until I finally released all the self-suffering. I don't waste anymore time thinking about how anyone did me wrong. I'm in a far better place having let it all go. After all, life is life not only for myself, but for other people too. I'm just here trying to do my best and make the right decisions and I'm not perfect. I've made a lot of detrimental mistakes in my life. And yet, if I can let my own self off the hook, I need to do the same for others. We're all only humans and with that comes imperfection and learning.

Blackraven

[Arcturus]

"forgiving is primarily for our own sake so that we no longer carry the burden of resentment." which is saying that forgiveness is selfish...perhaps, if one is not enlightened, then dropping some burden of resentment might be necessary, so you can breath...but i bear in mind that its about me, not them.

only the image of yourself that you've constructed out of fear can be hurt (other than physically)...no self image, no hurt, no need for forgiveness. really, the person contemplating forgiveness should apologise for having constructed a man made self that is basically, inadvertently, inviting misery...and then we bemoan the portender of our own legacy...bit cheeky aint we...its always me, never the other.

[linen53]

First you have to be willing to let go of all your emotions of betrayal from this person who hurt you. The emotions you are hanging onto. Only then can forgiveness have any meaning.

It has nothing to do with the other person. It all comes from within. And when you can do that, you can forgive them whether they have apologized or not.

[Wandering_Star]

Originally Posted by Gemcrusader

...what i also allready kinda realized but not fully is this:

Forgiving is not possible or has no effect if the perpetuator does NOT reckognize his actions.

I disagree. I disagree quite strongly, in fact.

My father was a narcissist. He engaged in a lot of very cruel, hurtful behavior over the course of his life, especially toward his children.

And he never, ever apologized, or admitted to even the slightest wrongdoing. If I was ever hurt by his cruelty, it was my fault--I needed to develop a thicker skin, a better sense of humor, stop being so sensitive, lighten up, get with the program. I was always inadequate, wrong, ignorant, with my head up my rear. And when he did compliment me, it was always with other people around, and it always felt fake, as if he was trying to show them what a loving father he was, not tell me what a good daughter I was.

But right before he died, I finally forgave him. Completely and absolutely forgave him for everything. He died of cancer, and suffered a lot at the end, and that finally brought him down to human-size for me, where I could finally comprehend that he was just a frightened, insecure, unhappy being who had spent his life trying to get a leg up on everybody. He'd been so cruel to me and to others because he truly believed we would treat him the same way if he didn't keep us knocked off-balance. He saw everyone else as a potential threat to his ego, and therefore he couldn't truly love. He lived a sad and pitiable life, once I really thought about it. It was easy to forgive, then.

Forgiveness has nothing to do with what the other person does, or whether they're sorry. Forgiveness is simply dropping your own pain, anger, shame, and resentment when it comes to that person. You don't even need to tell them they're forgiven. You just need to make the decision to stop carrying that heavy negativity and blaming it on them.

Forgiveness isn't about letting others get away with what they've done; it's about letting you get away from it, rather than continuing to drag it around.

The other person can keep on doing whatever it is they do. They don't need to be sorry. There's no debt you're trying to collect from them, any more. And by dropping past hurt, you can quit dragging it into the present and move unhindered into the future.

The reason why a sorry can be so empty. And basicly means nothing. Its about letting quarter fall trough. If there are words and discussion, yet u feel the quarter is not going trough its meaningless.

I have forgiven people who gave me such ridiculous, lame, half-baked apologies it was all I could do not to roll my eyes and say, "You have got to be kidding if you think that's even a remotely believable apology."

I have forgiven people who gave me such ridiculous, lame, half-baked apologies all I could do was roll my eyes and say, "You have got to be kidding if you think that's even a remotely believable apology."

I have forgiven people who never bothered to offer an apology in the first place, my father included.

Forgiveness doesn't make everything they did okay, or restore broken trust, or let them get off without consequence. It just frees you from carrying around all that unresolved hurt and anger, and being further harmed in the process. That's it.

[Robinski78]

There's an interesting chain of events that lead to an act of forgiveness, the second link being that of a judgmental nature...

No matter what is said and or done, it can go no further unless someone passes judgment and sentence on the said act...

Then, and only then, can an act of forgiveness become a reality or necessity...

So often, the one rebuffed by the initial statement or action, becomes the judge and jury, which is not really an idealistic position to be in, because it amounts to them being in a parallel position, to that of the initial perpetrator...

Once the knot has been tied, it takes a great deal of patience and understanding to find a satisfactory answer... Far be it from me to try and provide one here and now...

[Tanemon]

Originally Posted by Robinski78

There's an interesting chain of events that lead to an act of forgiveness, the second link being that of a judgmental nature...

No matter what is said and or done, it can go no further unless someone passes judgment and sentence on the said act...

Then, and only then, can an act of forgiveness become a reality or necessity...

I can't deny the reality you've described. If "a wrong" is committed, someone must recognize it as a wrong. Only if some act is recognized as a transgression or violation is there any need to forgive (or for 'the perpetrator' to apologize or make amends).

Robinski78, you are an interesting participant, an interesting thinker. So I'd like to describe a scenario and learn how you would respond to it.

Okay... You come home one evening after being away, only to find that your home has been entered and virtually everything of usefulness and value has been removed, and what's left is in disarray. You realize that you've heard of this same thing happening to some of your friends. Someone known to you and your circle of friends - someone who has always acted sociable, reasonable, and affable - turns out to be the culprit, since he is caught with stolen goods by the police. Unfortunately, this happens after he has passed along your useful and valuable items, using various channels of distribution that he'd developed over a period of time.

Do you think you'd judge the man? Do you feel his actions would have been wrong in any way? If, after an apparent change of heart, he apologized to you - how would you feel? Or, on the other hand, if he never apologized to any of the people he'd robbed, would that bear on how you feel about him?

Originally Posted by Robinski78

There's an interesting chain of events that lead to an act of forgiveness, the second link being that of a judgmental nature...

No matter what is said and or done, it can go no further unless someone passes judgment and sentence on the said act...

Then, and only then, can an act of forgiveness become a reality or necessity...

So often, the one rebuffed by the initial statement or action, becomes the judge and jury, which is not really an idealistic position to be in, because it amounts to them being in a parallel position, to that of the initial perpetrator...

Once the knot has been tied, it takes a great deal of patience and understanding to find a satisfactory answer... Far be it from me to try and provide one here and now...

Good point.

Personally, I don't forgive since forgiveness implies judgment. Who are we to judge? I SIMPLY LET GO.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

[Gemcrusader]

Originally Posted by samsara4

Good point.

Personally, I don't forgive since forgiveness implies judgment. Who are we to judge? I SIMPLY LET GO.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

i actually agree with that. There is not really forgiveness for me either. I just dont want negative stuff basicly.

[Gemcrusader]

Well, im very sensitive to negative energy. And if one is pouring it into my system i have to do somethin about it. I can forgive all i want, but if they dont realize what they do it keeps floating around. And then im in pain. It affects my breathing. I dont get angry or somethin i just want it to stop. As soon as i know and feel it has hit them i can let it go. If not i cant and it keeps affecting me in a negative way which i dont want.