Dress Appropriate For Modern Times

[Holly]

Originally Posted by Sabeel Shah

Is it permissible to shake hands with a person of opposite sex? If the person is mahram, then it is permissible. But if the person is non-mahram, then it is forbidden.

So...what do you do at work if you have to shake hands with say...a muslim female who isn't "unmarriageable" kin? And does this apply to non-muslims?

Can you shake hands with a married muslim woman if she's say...your boss?? Or a single english woman who's an atheist, for example?

I doubt you can get away with not shaking hands with women these days. In England if you're at a job interview and it's a woman boss, and you refuse to shake her hand, she's going to be very offended and she won't employ you. Plus, why would you shake hands with unmarriageable kin anyway? Surely you already know them well enough that shaking hands would be redundant. Isn't that sort of gesture for meeting NEW people?? Or for business.

Saying "Oh, you're not mahram so I can't touch you," would surely just confuse or offend people?

I think what you're saying here is a VERY different social system to anything I've ever lived under!

[Holly]

I'm going to make another post but I want to think about what I'm going to say first LOL ;)

[Holly]

Ok, I had to go do some serious research because I KNOW some of my perceptions about Islam aren't accurate because the media does like to sensationalise. What I get so far is...Islam considers men to be naturally visusally stimulated and therefore in need of protection from their own lusts. The dude actually gave the analogy of a worker bee wanting to go up to a pretty flower and er..."sip her nectar?"

Literally that is what I found. Yikes. Anyway.

OK well it is normal for the bee to want the nectar and for men to lust to a certain extent but I still don't feel that covering women up is the answer. Maybe control your lust, guys?? It's FINE if women WANT to wear coverings but let's face it, a LOT of those women are cajoled, persuaded or shamed into it. Like a lot of western girls are cajoled and shamed into losing their virginity (also wrong.)

There is a cultural expectation. The Quran says no woman should or can be forced to marry against her will, and yet we know many muslim women and even girls ARE shipped off to other countries and forced to marry men they don't know. I went to school with one. She had to run from her own family. They were going to kill her because she refused to marry the man they'd chosen. Personally I think there's a big difference between what the Quran says about wearing various coverings and the cultural context and expectations actually imposed. Some women may see it as empowering, but others certainly don't.

Women "reveal the contours of their bodies" because the weather is warm and they want to be cool, or because they're exercising, or they're comfortable, or they enjoy the style of clothing. It has NOTHING to do with sex. I mean...I expect men around me to control themselves. I'm visually stimulated too. I don't go about touching up sexy blokes because I can't control my lusts do I?

I will say one thing tho. I am SICK of men in the western world treating me like a mastubatory aid. I'm also sick of the cultural expectation here that when dating, he expects to get into your knickers within a month, or two months. I find it disgusting.

Since I made it clear I only DATE, and I won't have sex before marriage...WHAM....Nobody wants to date me anymore LOL. Proves what they were really after.

I'll give women in Islam this; they have the option of covering themselves and not receiving that sort of shallow and lustful attention. That's a form of power I WOULD appreciate myself.

[markings]

Originally Posted by Holly

Since I made it clear I only DATE, and I won't have sex before marriage...WHAM....Nobody wants to date me anymore LOL. Proves what they were really after.

Have you considered offering to just masturbate him?
Some men could be happy with that for a while.
Who knows, he might reciprocate.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by markings

Have you considered offering to just masturbate him?
Some men could be happy with that for a while.
Who knows, he might reciprocate.

??? "Won't have sex before marriage..." My definition of what constitutes sex appears to be entirely different than yours!

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Holly

Ok, I had to go do some serious research because I KNOW some of my perceptions about Islam aren't accurate because the media does like to sensationalise. What I get so far is...Islam considers men to be naturally visusally stimulated and therefore in need of protection from their own lusts. The dude actually gave the analogy of a worker bee wanting to go up to a pretty flower and er..."sip her nectar?"

Literally that is what I found. Yikes. Anyway.

OK well it is normal for the bee to want the nectar and for men to lust to a certain extent but I still don't feel that covering women up is the answer. Maybe control your lust, guys?? It's FINE if women WANT to wear coverings but let's face it, a LOT of those women are cajoled, persuaded or shamed into it. Like a lot of western girls are cajoled and shamed into losing their virginity (also wrong.)

There is a cultural expectation. The Quran says no woman should or can be forced to marry against her will, and yet we know many muslim women and even girls ARE shipped off to other countries and forced to marry men they don't know. I went to school with one. She had to run from her own family. They were going to kill her because she refused to marry the man they'd chosen. Personally I think there's a big difference between what the Quran says about wearing various coverings and the cultural context and expectations actually imposed. Some women may see it as empowering, but others certainly don't.

Women "reveal the contours of their bodies" because the weather is warm and they want to be cool, or because they're exercising, or they're comfortable, or they enjoy the style of clothing. It has NOTHING to do with sex. I mean...I expect men around me to control themselves. I'm visually stimulated too. I don't go about touching up sexy blokes because I can't control my lusts do I?


I will say one thing tho. I am SICK of men in the western world treating me like a mastubatory aid. I'm also sick of the cultural expectation here that when dating, he expects to get into your knickers within a month, or two months. I find it disgusting.

Since I made it clear I only DATE, and I won't have sex before marriage...WHAM....Nobody wants to date me anymore LOL. Proves what they were really after.

I'll give women in Islam this; they have the option of covering themselves and not receiving that sort of shallow and lustful attention. That's a form of power I WOULD appreciate myself.

Yer spot on Holly...men will date but most give up as soon as they see the light of sincerity and authenticity in your eyes, LOL...because you're not giving them the signal you'll be on offer 24/7 very soon. I.e., you're actually trying to have a normal conversation -- and you're not sexing them up, fingering your hair and your neckline, licking your lips, making eyes, touching them or yourself all the time, and otherwise acting/speaking overtly provocatively. Really lame, but true. Most women's casual clothing is already cut to be fairly tight and reasonably provocative but bonus points for many if the woman reveals a lot of skin on top or wears skintight trousers or tights with a lot of bum cleavage, or leaves off undergarments. This spells out "I'm already halfway on offer" to the snake brain trying to sniff out its next fix.

Keep the faith, as they say

BUT also spot on you and Sky123, on everything else about Islam.
Men are required by Islam to be modest in dress, behaviour, gaze, intent, and thought -- just as women are. To be honest...if everyone minded their own game and took responsibility for themselves, that's the end of it right there.

But in every culture, the burden of morality is dumped on women. It's just currently usually much more blatant in many non-Western cultures, but not always. Look at all the misogyny coming to the fore in the US, sadly. And look at the prosecution statistics for rape against all the reported rapes and test kits, in any country, pretty much. Traditional Islamic culture is extreme and barbaric toward women but then again, Western culture is too when as you say a man expects and demands penetration within a month or so of casual dating. That too is really just brutal and barbaric, the whole assumption in the West that women are mindless holes, disposable and subhuman, so no need to get to know us.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Holly]

Originally Posted by markings

Have you considered offering to just masturbate him?
Some men could be happy with that for a while.
Who knows, he might reciprocate.

Yes I could but that's still a lot like saying...a man won't stick around unless he's receiving some sort of sexual pleasure orfavour from me.

When men get horny they want more, and some of them get pushier and pushier with you. Oh, it's only sex, comes out, or, what harm will it do just this once? Then if you give in and have sex, it'll be...but you did it that time. Come on, don't you like me??

They try to manipulate and play mind games to get you to consent without ever stopping to wonder what effect this has on a woman's mind and body. It's wholly selfish.

I don't WANT him to reciprocate LOL. What's the point in saying no sex, then letting someone inside you in a different way? It's obvious he'd hatch that idea. If he can't get inside you in the usual way, then he'll start thinking about what he CAN do with his hands. Once you do anything sexy, he knows he can draw you deeper and deeper into full sex to satisfy himself, at which point you lose your identity as a woman and become a hole he can use. Sure he can pleasure you too, but 50% of that enjoyment is HIS, and that's often a man's motivation for having sex. They only want to give the girl a good time so she won't bad-mouth him to his friends or insult his performance. That's ego, not love.

Unfortunately I'm a NICE, trusting person and not a fabulously savvy judge of character. It takes me a LONG time to get the measure of another person. By the time I figure out what he is and why he's with me, I could have shared my body and energy with him and then I'll be left to patch up yet ANOTHER emotional and energetic train wreck. Wave bye-bye to another six years of my life. I don't think so LOL.

I'd rather never have sex again for the rest of my life.

[Holly]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

....Western culture is too when as you say a man expects and demands penetration within a month or so of casual dating. That too is really just brutal and barbaric, the whole assumption in the West that women are mindless holes, disposable and subhuman, so no need to get to know us...
7L

Exactly :) I don't think it occurs to men that for women, sex is a very different, very vulnerable experience. They seem to think we will just...adopt their way of thinking about it., detach it from intimacy of the heart and spirit and treat it as a purely physical experience with no importance other than simple gratification. It's well known that most men don't attach sex to deeper feelings, and that most women do.

Sometimes it feels as if western civility and equal rights are just a smokescreen for uncontrolled lust and addiction to sex. The truth is men CAN be barbaric towards women (don't get me wrong, I'm no radical feminist. I'm the first to stand up for men's rights, but those rights don't include sex with me, or any woman, as and when they want it.) Generally people don't go about raping one another out of fear someone else will find out and they will go to jail, so people do the next best thing - manipulation to get what they want out of the opposite sex.

I'm afraid women made their beds with the equal rights movement. Men began to think women could be like men, and as a result many women now struggle to hold down full time jobs, keep up with chores and raise children while their men think 8 hours at work is a long day and come home to just engulf the sofa and watch TV, as if they have NO responsibility whatsoever to ensure the toilet gets cleaned or the laundry gets done.

By demanding equal rights we set ourselves up to fail. We should have demanded equal liberties, and kept our gender role, as it turns out it's usually the woman who do the housework and childcare anyway! While also making themselves available for sex 24/7, just in case he gets blue balls and really, really can't possibly wait until we're not absolutely EXHAUSTED for his dopamine rush.



Women live at a biological disadvantage. Men are stronger, faster, and able to put on muscle very fast. They're more ABLE to keep up with the demands of work and family life. Women have to work hard to match them, so we wind up fatigued.

Plus, kind of obvious point but...it's IS NOT the man who gets PREGNANT! What if (God FORBID LOL) I don't actually WANT to poison my body with hormone contraceptives??! Oh God, shock, SHOCK! A woman who refuses to take the pill just so that he can have sex as often as he likes. I'm not risking an unwanted pregnancy so he can have his fun!

[markings]

Originally Posted by Holly

Yes I could but that's still a lot like saying...a man won't stick around unless he's receiving some sort of sexual pleasure orfavour from me.

When men get horny they want more, and some of them get pushier and pushier with you. Oh, it's only sex, comes out, or, what harm will it do just this once? Then if you give in and have sex, it'll be...but you did it that time. Come on, don't you like me??

They try to manipulate and play mind games to get you to consent without ever stopping to wonder what effect this has on a woman's mind and body. It's wholly selfish.

I don't WANT him to reciprocate LOL. What's the point in saying no sex, then letting someone inside you in a different way? It's obvious he'd hatch that idea. If he can't get inside you in the usual way, then he'll start thinking about what he CAN do with his hands. Once you do anything sexy, he knows he can draw you deeper and deeper into full sex to satisfy himself, at which point you lose your identity as a woman and become a hole he can use. Sure he can pleasure you too, but 50% of that enjoyment is HIS, and that's often a man's motivation for having sex. They only want to give the girl a good time so she won't bad-mouth him to his friends or insult his performance. That's ego, not love.

I'd rather never have sex again for the rest of my life.

I have so many problems with this post. With an attitude like that you *will* not have sex again, ever.
It is really disappointing to see how low an opinion, and by implication low respect, you have of men.

That 50% thing really sucks. How much do you want for yourself, 90%, 99%? And you call men selfish?

Why are men expected to understand and accommodate woman but there is virtually no understanding and accommodation of men in return?

[markings]

Originally Posted by Holly

I'm not risking an unwanted pregnancy so he can have his fun!

If it is he only who has fun you are with the wrong man.