What will happen to the materialistic non-believers?

Originally Posted by iamthat

The idea that Hitler, Stalin, etc acted "out of a greater love for humanity while killing millions" is rather bizarre. There was no love for humanity - Hitler and Stalin were driven by misguided ideals based around personal power. But the fact that these leaders had huge popular support indicates that perhaps the descent into chaos was necessary to learn the lessons. Maybe all those adoring Nazis of the 1930s had to experience the grim reality of Germany in 1945 to understand the consequences of such support. Yes, a different response in the early days could have led in a different direction, but that did not happen, so after a certain point the descent into chaos seems inevitable.

Peace.

Group consciousness

Originally Posted by Altair

The soul is perfect and has no need to ''learn''. The rest of what we are, or what we think we are, is created through karma. And it's not ''eye for an eye'' either, and can be transformed through acts of compassion, nonviolence, and right justice. These should prevail. Lets celebrate that goodness in us..


Funnily enough.. look what we have done so far. We've already eradicated a number of diseases. Looks like we are in the position to make things better and make a world with less suffering involved. It's not a mere ''ideal''.. it becomes real through our actions..

I applaud your optimism, Altair, and don't argue against it. Yes, there has been progress. There is also danger (environmental issues caused by our materialism, greed, systems of control etc)

The personality and the larger part of us is distinctive in its own ways. We could say the ego suffers, but God does not. God learns through us, we learn if we wake up. The personality/ego is a useful mechanism in this regard. So yes, there is learning - there is compassion, there is wisdom, there is joy. These are called potentialities.

JL

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

Why can't/doesen't science prove the existence of the soul?

Science - controlled conditions, repeatable at call, controllable, boxed, material, physical.

Look up Einstein, Quantum Physics, HHDL.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by janielee

Did you read the post he was responding to?

I did read the post.

Greenslade said "The story was of two Spirits who were discussing their next incarnations, and one of the Spirits decided that having the experience of being raped would benefit her Spiritual development. The other very reluctantly agreed but under one condition, she had to remember that he was doing it because he Loved her."

This seems entirely feasible. Two Souls discussing their next incarnation, and one of them accepts that undergoing a horrible experience would provide valuable lessons, and the other Soul reluctantly agreeing to participate in this horrible experience.

Because many people on Earth do go through horrible experiences, and it may seem as if they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but who is to say that it was not decided before birth on a Soul level that such an experience would happen. The personality suffers, but in that suffering there is the opportunity for great learning.

Somehow Altair twisted this round to become "two persons cooking up sinister and deplorable fantasies in some afterlife spa". And also says "Even if violence is asked for or begged for that does not make it right or justifiable. There are people who want to be beaten or even gruesome stories where people want their organs being cooked and eaten."

So Altair does seem to miss the point. A Soul's decision about events in the next incarnation is reduced to the sordid fantasy of depraved people.

Or do you believe that the Soul only plans good things for each incarnation, and any bad things which might happen are not part of the plan?

The suffering passes but the learning remains.

Peace.

Originally Posted by iamthat

I
Because many people on Earth do go through horrible experiences, and it may seem as if they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but who is to say that it was not decided before birth on a Soul level that such an experience would happen. The personality suffers, but in that suffering there is the opportunity for great learning.

A very sad response from a usually sanguine fellow. It could be this or it could be that, or it could be your Mother's incarnation. Basically you do not KNOW from first hand experience or divine spiritual revelation yet posit that the sufferings of others can be just "Soul agreements"

As Rah Nam more aptly said, possible but dangerous to assume it is ALL so.

JL

Originally Posted by iamthat

Or do you believe that the Soul only plans good things for each incarnation, and any bad things which might happen are not part of the plan?

The suffering passes but the learning remains.

Peace.

No, but to posit all atrocities and human cruelty is a result of "Soul agreements" is the antithesis not only of spirituality, but of humanity itself.

You are intertwining the two too heavily here, IMO.

JL

Agreeing with iamthat that the Divine does come here to learn, experience, love, grow - and that "The suffering passes but the learning remains."

As does LOVE, most importantly, love and blessedness.

JL

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by janielee

No, but to posit all atrocities and human cruelty is a result of "Soul agreements" is the antithesis not only of spirituality, but of humanity itself.

You are intertwining the two too heavily here, IMO.

JL

Did I say that all atrocities and human cruelty come down to "Soul agreements"?

The original post which has caused all this discussion concerned a possible situation between two individuals, and such situations may well be due to Soul agreements. And such an agreement may also take into account the karma of the individual concerned.

When we talk about atrocities and human cruelty in a broader sense then we have to consider factors such as national karma or even the karma of humanity itself. In these cases I believe that the individuals affected are swept along by forces outside their control. The greater karma supercedes the lesser karma.

Yet even in situations of mass suffering, whether caused by natural disaster or by other humans, some fare better than others. One person dies while the next person lives. One house is destroyed while the house next door is intact. It may be random, it may be down to luck, it may be karma, it may be blamed on a fickle God, or it may come down to Soul purpose. Who knows. But in a benevolent universe there is probably a good reason.

A couple of book suggestions:

Robert Schwarz Your Soul's Plan: Discovering the Real Meaning of the Life You Planned Before You Were Born

Robert Schwarz Your Soul's Gift: The Healing Power of the Life You Planned Before You Were Born

Peace.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by iamthat

.

Somehow Altair twisted this round to become "two persons cooking up sinister and deplorable fantasies in some afterlife spa". And also says "Even if violence is asked for or begged for that does not make it right or justifiable. There are people who want to be beaten or even gruesome stories where people want their organs being cooked and eaten."

So Altair does seem to miss the point. A Soul's decision about events in the next incarnation is reduced to the sordid fantasy of depraved people.

Or do you believe that the Soul only plans good things for each incarnation, and any bad things which might happen are not part of the plan?

The suffering passes but the learning remains.

Peace.

Twisting around..?

Maybe I missed your and GS’s point, but I believe differently..
I do not believe in soul contracts or lessons. I do not believe any ''soul'' wants to have a 'body' and 'experience' this or that. Only our ‘false’ or temporary identity wants that (nothing wrong that by the way!), and this part of us also learns and is capable of shedding layers of karma, to get closer to ‘divinity’. This makes things IMO less complicated than all these elaborate plans and schemes. Why would ‘soul’, if it’s divine, need any of that? It is the baggage we carry that commits such acts.

Any ‘plan’ we make is action and choice.. that assumes a doer, a thinker. I don't believe 'soul' talks and thirsts for lower realities.

Originally Posted by janielee

Hi Greenslade,

I know you are always right, and don't expect agreement, but for the record Spirituality (true Spirituality i.e the one of the Ancients and Masters) is not just a belief system or a series of beliefs.

Were it so, it would be fallable, changed etc - whereas the Truth is timeless, true, eternal, classic, the same for all The Wise and Realized.

JL

Hi Janie, thanks for saying that.

For instance.... In the original Sanskrit, the word 'karma' meant 'action' and nothing more. In the last discussion about it, what it came down to was that the Universal Law of Karma was reward and punishment mentality. The truth is relative to one's own agenda.

Only the truth can be the truth and truth expressed is no longer the truth, the truth is one of those things that go far beyond any capacity the human mind - not consciousness - has to express. What you have defined here is not the truth but what the truth is in your reality, but please note that I'm not saying that it's not your own truth and therefore any less valid. The real understanding is not what you believe but the reasons you believe it, and the question is if you say "This is the truth" then what are your reasons? In that place is where you make the difference between what you believe to be the truth and what you want to believe to be the truth for egoic agenda.

If you truly resonate with the Timeless, the classic.... then the truth is the finger that points to the moon, and when you focus on that finger you miss all that Heavenly Glory - thanks to Bruce Lee for that one. The Timeless and the Classic are the fingers.

"“The temple of the most high begins with the body which houses our life, the essence of our existence. Africans are in bondage today because they approach spirituality through religion provided by foreign invaders and conquerors. We must stop confusing religion and spirituality. Religion is a set of rules, regulations and rituals created by humans, which was suppose to help people grow spiritually. Due to human imperfection religion has become corrupt, political, divisive and a tool for power struggle. Spirituality is not theology or ideology. It is simply a way of life, pure and original as was given by the Most High of Creation. Spirituality is a network linking us to the Most High, the universe, and each other…”
Haile Selassie I

People don't do anything for nothing and when you look to your reasons you understand everything, because Spirituality is a Journey to Self - this whole existence is a Journey to Self. Oh, and do yourself a favour and forget expectations because they only get in the way. Just allow.