Question about karma (in Buddhism)

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Gem

To be realistic, one has to be reasonably consistent in their balance of equanimity to have a fair degree of metta. Otherwise the mind will be too reactive and erratic and be volatile and hurtful too often. Also, it is the equanimity of mind that underpins the purification process, and it takes some degree of purification for the love of the universe to actualise in free flow through the heart.

Gem, I very much agree. It all starts with equanimity and from that place at center, we can align with What Is, with what I call ananda, or the sublime joy of being, but which can also be called authentic love as we experience it as a feeling. Because it is everywhere, IMO we do experience the flow of this in our interbeing with all that is. When we to that, we can consciously align with it, and as we do this moment-to-moment and day-to-day, we actively take part in co-creating the moment (guiding ourselves and in weaving the tapestry).

It is indeed for the best to consciously align with the love of the universe, though this is endemic to us all anyway, because we tend toward distraction and lose touch with ourselves and harbour bitterness, greed, jealousy, vanity, hatred etc that compels us to be unkind. It is 'right effort to identify these negative mindstates and undermine those tendencies by endeavouring to maintain as calm a disposition as possible. This means the practice of equanimity (which is the absence of reactivity) quells negative mind while being the 'way' that enables the purirfication, and thus the free flow of metta.

Agreed...obstructions occur, situations arise, folks and society are often misaligned, even egregiously. These things happen and a large part of finding and maintaining equanimity is accepting the reality AND ALSO also our right to take responsibility indivdually and collectively, to address the egregious misalignment and predictable resultant suffering.

Objectivity which is right-aligned with centre is the key to perspective and to balanced mental and emotional states. This allows for acceptance of both reality and ownership in each moment. And for dialogue, exchange, cooperation and action at both individual and collective levels. IMO a good deal of what we think of as individual issues are in fact both individual and collective, and it's good to spend time sorting that.

When we acknowledge this and also spend time to continually ensure those things are properly sorted, metta (lovingkindness) flows more evenly and freely IMO as we are more balanced all round in our web of interbeing. And also because we are more mutually aware of not only our own responsibilities (which is core) but also our responsibilities to one another and to our collective humanity (and Gaia).

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by sky123

"'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'...

"[This is a fact that] one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained...

"Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'? There are beings who conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that bad conduct in body, speech, and mind will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker...

"A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who — whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings — past and future, passing away and re-arising — all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and live dependent on their actions. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed."

— AN 5.57

Sky -- Nice. Here is a lovely use of quoting a master.

There is no way around it but through it. And that requires ownership and in modern parlance, making amends through right alignment in all we do and ultimately through direct and mutually agreed engagement, i.e. through direct words and deeds of remorse, contrition, and seeking reconciliation.

Whether this lifetime or some other, we will have opportunity to be and do good (right alignment) or other (misalignment) toward these individuals and their individuated consciousness. And since we may not be aware of who or where or when, we must take this approach toward all sentient beings...any or all of whom may have been, as they say, our mother, who has loved us more than life

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Busby

We don't need to learn.

Busby, hello there! First, absolutely disagree that experience and learning are or must be separate...and that one must occur without the other being allowed. How is it you are good with putting constraints on certain aspects of experience, which include learning? LOL...Putting that aside...

I'll say it again - everything is, at this moment, at the pinnacle of evolution.

If I read what you say, which is a very general statement of truth IMO, and then step back, what is revealed is this.

Our local pinnacle (that of the bulk of humanity) is, at this moment, currently struggling to emerge from spiritual infancy, with many having moved into in the indulgent and narcissistic stage of toddlerhood (late spiritual infancy) and with many others truculently resisting further maturation. LOL...

So, as with any general truth, much of that truth is conditional upon the relative and the local caveats and corollaries Point being, there is no grand pinnacle, there is no end state when we are finished cooking spiritually and culturally.

We are nowhere near any sort of collective or mean individual levels of maturity even using our our ready framework of basic physical, intellectual and social development as a parallel (based on key foundational developmental milestones).

Even just from that, we can see that our spiritual and emotional development is severely stunted or arrested (& arguable misdirected or perhaps even somewhat devolved in spots) in several key areas and greatly lags our nascent mental and cultural achievenments of these last few thousand yrs.

This may have been precisely your point, hahaha...but just sayin'

Peace & blessings
7L

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by JustBe

What if,in the eyes of spirit there is no remorse required?

Your view on karma is your minds view because of your perceived seperation and what you perceive is necessary for others.

To say that one will eventually feel remorse for their wrongdoings is a very limited perception of what is and can be within the whole. It’s one piece that ‘some’ go through, because they retain judgment, shame, guilt created in them by others. Have you considered that it works in reverse. That as the one who goes through remorse you as the one aware can end all views of remorse simply because everything can return to love. See all suffering as love. The world judges, shames and dictates forgiveness. It’s not the nature of spirit.

Your speaking as if all will face this. It’s only about you, you cannot speak that ‘one’ will face remorse. It’s not your will deciding anything.

In the nature of my direct experience, it’s the mind and ideas we are our suffering that creates stories about others karma.

You are presenting a hypothetical theory based upon what?

It's not so much about 'if' there is no remorse required, it is about what actually manifests.

If you hypothetically went outside now and and smashed your neighbours windows and set fire to their treasured rose bush then anyone in their right mind would at some point feel sorry for the trouble they have caused ..

We have a conscience, we have a self measure in effect .

If there was no remorse required, there would be no need for a conscience ..

One's actions always catches up with us, whether in this lifetime or the next ..

In the world of spirit we all have a life review and we are able to look at ourselves from another perspective ..

Believe me or not, it matters not, but a time will come where one will feel remorse for wrong doings and one's future lifetimes will encompass the environment and the opportunity to balance the books ..

This is karma . Karma is a natural creation of experience that is directly associated to the individual.

I am not an advocate of separation but I am of individuality.

This is why you can have peeps aware of themselves to various degrees .

You can have those that have realized Self and you can have those that haven't ..

There doesn't have to be separation for there to be diversity .


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Busby

That we are born under 'certain circumstances' (as we all are), should be the first step of our (every-ones') way to learn and experience lies well away from my personal philosophy. What has already transpired finds its total in the now - it's that simple. Their cannot be anything else.

'We' that is each of us as an individual has the same basic knowledge (of everything) residing inside of us, it is at home in the human collective consciousness or subconsciousness. We don't need to learn. We, as part of the whole, need to experience - and will continue to do so as the universe expands. We learn by experiencing that which is yet to be and this bears very little in common with that which we have already 'done'.

This what life is all about; the unknown becoming known and the accumulation of the experiences hidden from the view of awareness. Of this there will be no end. When our universe comes to an end it will replace itself with another different one. Only awareness - consciousness makes sense.

It seems ridiculous to me to say that those people in Syria, children who are having their limbs blown off by grown-up men, is for instance because of some law of repercussions. It's true that there is a law of reaping and sowing but this law isn't an eye for an eye but for adding to a collective understanding - an assimilation of experiences.

I'll say it again - everything is, at this moment, at the pinnacle of evolution.

We could list many difficult circumstances that peeps go through life experiencing ..

You have given the example of children who are having their limbs blown off ..

One needs to understand the reasons behind the experience, the rich man the poor man, the slave, the master ..

All experiences have something within them that is a direct result of that which has already past ..

I agree things don't have to pan out in a like for like fashion, one could simply be the helping hand that gives one an opportunity in this lifetime, where previously one had kept one incarcerated ...

Everything is energetically being created quite naturally just as the plant finds it's way to the sunlight ..

One could say it's part of the grand design or simply a natural law of creating from an effect or an action ..

All vibratory ..


x daz x

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by God-Like

You are presenting a hypothetical theory based upon what?

It's not so much about 'if' there is no remorse required, it is about what actually manifests.

If you hypothetically went outside now and and smashed your neighbours windows and set fire to their treasured rose bush then anyone in their right mind would at some point feel sorry for the trouble they have caused ..

We have a conscience, we have a self measure in effect .

If there was no remorse required, there would be no need for a conscience ..

One's actions always catches up with us, whether in this lifetime or the next ..

In the world of spirit we all have a life review and we are able to look at ourselves from another perspective ..

Believe me or not, it matters not, but a time will come where one will feel remorse for wrong doings and one's future lifetimes will encompass the environment and the opportunity to balance the books ..

This is karma . Karma is a natural creation of experience that is directly associated to the individual.

I am not an advocate of separation but I am of individuality.

This is why you can have peeps aware of themselves to various degrees .

You can have those that have realized Self and you can have those that haven't ..

There doesn't have to be separation for there to be diversity .


x daz x

What if when you die everything is clean slate?
What if, in this body your determining all this through belief, mind and YOUR experience and there is more..

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by JustBe

What if when you die everything is clean slate?
What if, in this body your determining all this through belief, mind and YOUR experience and there is more..

You can't wipe clean how you feel in reflection of what you have done ..

Everything is recorded for use of a better word ..

All of our experiences reflect our soul essence .. our soul growth ..

This is why there are individuals that reflect an old soul energy compared to another that is green behind the ears ..

You haven't addressed my comment about deliberately smashing your neighbours window ..

Will you feel remorse for doing such an action or not?

Forget about all the mind stuff and all the if's and the but's .. just tell how you would feel if you deliberately caused distress to another ..

This is all that you need to reflect upon ..

We don't actually need to dress karma up in any way other than how does certain actions make you feel ..

Some might say that feeling remorse or feeling regret or guilt, is karma at a grass root level.

It is simply just.


x dazzle x

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

You are presenting a hypothetical theory based upon what?

It's not so much about 'if' there is no remorse required, it is about what actually manifests.

If you hypothetically went outside now and and smashed your neighbours windows and set fire to their treasured rose bush then anyone in their right mind would at some point feel sorry for the trouble they have caused ..

We have a conscience, we have a self measure in effect .

If there was no remorse required, there would be no need for a conscience ..

Hey there Daz and well said. Our entire reason for being is aligned with the need to love and support ourselves and one another...and when we do not, we ultimately will experience regret and remorse.

These experiences are natural and right-aligned and thus good, true, and beautiful. They are "lamps for the path to enlightenment", as the masters have said, revealing our true nature at centre.

One's actions always catches up with us, whether in this lifetime or the next ..

In the world of spirit we all have a life review and we are able to look at ourselves from another perspective ..

It's hard for many to accept but consciousness is beyond time and space. So we may call it "eternal" (and/or eternal from the "point" of individuation), but in fact it is simply unbounded by these things. And thus -- in terms of consciousness -- we are never other than simply what we are in this very moment...whether we are incarnated or not. What we are is the sum total of our being and doing, including all we have ever been and done.

Many gravitate toward materialism (the fate of your consciousness or your soul is based on your body...once the body expires, "you" cease to exist. LOL...because why? Because unbounded consciousness requires a body to persist? We require a body to experience and learn more concretely...but there is no ceasing to exist in the ultimate sense.

Hahahaha...that will no double be a real shocker to many, the realisation that "you" don't go anywhere and all your baggage and unsorted poo remains just as you'd left it...unresolved and persistent. The realisation that "OMG I have to take ownership for all that rubbish? But I'm dead (BTW holy hell wish'd I'd got the memo..)" Ok, I'd say, so you're dead (using your most recent incarnation as a reference point). Your folks on earth do miss you and yes, that love and connection is also eternal.

But physical death is just a transition. It's not a wiping clean of all you are and have been as boundless, persistent consciousness. What folks often don't realise is this is not even possible. We may destroy this entire physical universe by accident or intent (hopefully not of course, LOL), but even so, no one has "the power" to destroy consciousness. I think this is one of the "secret teachings" of Buddhism's message to "get over the ego"

Specifically this: that we cannot destroy that which is boundless and infinite...not for ourselves and certainly not for another. That (thus) we must ultimately accept and grow and learn how to play nice in the sandbox. And the timeless corollary of that is, we must all own our poo. Because these are hugely liberating and transformative truths.

Believe me or not, it matters not, but a time will come where one will feel remorse for wrong doings and one's future lifetimes will encompass the environment and the opportunity to balance the books ..

Absolutely. Often we may even have multiple opportunities over multiple lifetimes. And thus, beyond simply addressing wrongs or imbalances, we can choose to add to the balance of authentic love, lovingkindness, and equanimity in the universe.

This is karma . Karma is a natural creation of experience that is directly associated to the individual.

I am not an advocate of separation but I am of individuality.

Agreed and well said. Interbeing and karma -- like the persistence of consciousness -- are both foundational truths of all "realms", however we may categorise them for discussion purposes.

This is why you can have peeps aware of themselves to various degrees .

You can have those that have realized Self and you can have those that haven't ..

There doesn't have to be separation for there to be diversity .

x daz x

No, there doesn't. That is the reason for much of the suffering, eh? Hahaha But then again, it also provides the eventual opportunity for engagement, dialogue, cooperation, lovingkindness, empathy, and co-creation for right-aligned movement toward balance.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Busby]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Busby, hello there! First, absolutely disagree that experience and learning are or must be separate...and that one must occur without the other being allowed. How is it you are good with putting constraints on certain aspects of experience, which include learning? LOL...Putting that aside...


If I read what you say, which is a very general statement of truth IMO, and then step back, what is revealed is this.

Our local pinnacle (that of the bulk of humanity) is, at this moment, currently struggling to emerge from spiritual infancy, with many having moved into in the indulgent and narcissistic stage of toddlerhood (late spiritual infancy) and with many others truculently resisting further maturation. LOL...

So, as with any general truth, much of that truth is conditional upon the relative and the local caveats and corollaries Point being, there is no grand pinnacle, there is no end state when we are finished cooking spiritually and culturally.

We are nowhere near any sort of collective or mean individual levels of maturity even using our our ready framework of basic physical, intellectual and social development as a parallel (based on key foundational developmental milestones).

Even just from that, we can see that our spiritual and emotional development is severely stunted or arrested (& arguable misdirected or perhaps even somewhat devolved in spots) in several key areas and greatly lags our nascent mental and cultural achievenments of these last few thousand yrs.

This may have been precisely your point, hahaha...but just sayin'

Peace & blessings
7L

Most if not all mystics (and some NDE experiencers) report that they found themselves bathed in knowledge. I suggest that in all corners of the universe new experiences are being made which have the purpose of adding to the stock of knowledge in the fashion of Jung's collective unconscious.
This POV assumes that the rest of the universe isn't there for nothing.

My use of the word 'pinnacle' was deliberate. Meaning that as we are now is as far as we have yet travelled. That the world isn't in a very good condition is perfectly clear - it is however the best we have been able to do up until now. Nor can we in any way compare. It is as it is. If we want it changed we'll have to do something about getting all and everything to want to achieve the same goal. Politics probably won't resolve into a new or other evolution - maybe things are now the way they have to be. There has to be some sort of process.

Agreed, this evolutionary process (as we perceive it) will never end - something to look forward to - maybe.

[Busby]

Originally Posted by God-Like

We could list many difficult circumstances that peeps go through life experiencing ..

You have given the example of children who are having their limbs blown off ..

One needs to understand the reasons behind the experience, the rich man the poor man, the slave, the master ..

All experiences have something within them that is a direct result of that which has already past ..

I agree things don't have to pan out in a like for like fashion, one could simply be the helping hand that gives one an opportunity in this lifetime, where previously one had kept one incarcerated ...

Everything is energetically being created quite naturally just as the plant finds it's way to the sunlight ..

One could say it's part of the grand design or simply a natural law of creating from an effect or an action ..

All vibratory ..


x daz x

IMO those children having their limbs blown off won't be happy about hearing that there are reasons behind their pain and terror.

It may well be a good argument - however well-disguised - for individuals and collectives to rape, bomb, murder and burn but it will hardly solve any problems.