How To Find A Teacher (Guru)

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Altair

IMO the grovelling before guru's is little different to giving one's power away - and placing one's faith in - presidents, kings, queens, etc. We can observe the same authoritarianism coming from a leader, and a mass of followers who think they cannot hope to achieve anything except through the benevolent leader. These are signs of humanity's immaturity. But give it some time, and progress and economic development will always help more people free themselves from such control.

I think it's more useful to think of ''guru's'' in the same way we think of anyone who shares an beneficial practice or ethics, like a psychologist, philosopher, or just any random person we may meet! View them as equals, as human beings. There's no need to sanctify any human being.

The difference is that presidents, kings, queens, etc are just ordinary people in a particular role. And while I would not bow down before most spiritual teachers, there are many exceptions in spiritual history. This is not "grovelling", this is not giving my power away, this is simply acknowledging a state of spiritual attainment which far surpasses my own.

Peace.

[inavalan]

People trust those whom they like, and who tell them what they like to hear. They should pay attention to their track record of what they deliver.

You may like that guru, you may like whatever he/she says, but do you have first hand knowledge of people who followed that guru and that have already achieved whatever you want to achieve?

This is valid not only for spiritual gurus, but for teachers, and leaders in all domains of life (including community leaders).

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

One of my old girl friends was a devotee of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (Osho). She spent considerable amount of time in the USA and India.

As time passed, our relationship started to faltered when one group got orders from one famous religious Asian leader to honor me with a plague signed by him. Being I was out of the country, I told her she could receive the award for me. She thought she would be able to give a speech - that did not happen. She thought because I could not receive the plague, they would give it to her - that did not also happen. She was furious.

I guess her teachings did not help her.

As for me, I normally learn on my own.... Oh well.

It sounds like there were lessons for her in that whole experience if she were to reflect upon it. Maybe some people are more focused on their devotion to the teacher than on doing the work of self-transformation and rising above habitual conditioned responses. But everyone is wherever they are.

Peace

Originally Posted by Altair

Thank you, Janielee. Good luck to you as well with your spirituality!

IMO the grovelling before guru's is little different to giving one's power away - and placing one's faith in - presidents, kings, queens, etc. We can observe the same authoritarianism coming from a leader, and a mass of followers who think they cannot hope to achieve anything except through the benevolent leader. These are signs of humanity's immaturity. But give it some time, and progress and economic development will always help more people free themselves from such control.

Not everyone can have the same perspective though. Some people grow up in very traditionalist families where much authority is placed on central figures, at home, in church/temple, and everywhere else. It appears to me that it is hard for many of them to break free of such structures and hierarchies, but many praise and respect to those who can achieve it and carve their own path in life.

I think it's more useful to think of ''guru's'' in the same way we think of anyone who shares an beneficial practice or ethics, like a psychologist, philosopher, or just any random person we may meet! View them as equals, as human beings. There's no need to sanctify any human being.

Grovelling is how you see it, and reflects your very particular mindset and set up, Altair.

Qualities such as worship, prayer, affection and love are heart qualities.
Whilst the intellect can parse, describe, defend and attack, it is only the heart that truly smiles.

Well wishes. To you
JL

Originally Posted by iamthat

The difference is that presidents, kings, queens, etc are just ordinary people in a particular role. And while I would not bow down before most spiritual teachers, there are many exceptions in spiritual history. This is not "grovelling", this is not giving my power away, this is simply acknowledging a state of spiritual attainment which far surpasses my own.

Peace.

And in meeting the real Guru, it is merely meeting where they are.

Rumi: There is a field..

Namaste,

JL

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by iamthat

The difference is that presidents, kings, queens, etc are just ordinary people in a particular role. And while I would not bow down before most spiritual teachers, there are many exceptions in spiritual history. This is not "grovelling", this is not giving my power away, this is simply acknowledging a state of spiritual attainment which far surpasses my own.

Peace.

My wife once got to see the Queen and read her fortune.

She was also able to get to meet the Dahli Lama. I could have gone.... wish I did.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by iamthat

It sounds like there were lessons for her in that whole experience if she were to reflect upon it. Maybe some people are more focused on their devotion to the teacher than on doing the work of self-transformation and rising above habitual conditioned responses. But everyone is wherever they are.

Peace

She insisted in being a non-conformist. This attitude caused her much grief but then - no use trying to tell her anything.

She did listen though a few times.

[Aknaton]

Now, a common misconception Is that the guru is most likely one who has practiced extensively in the Himalayas or some remote region; perhaps some swami or Tibetan mendicant.

We must Identify what the True Guru is as regards the particular space and time we occupy and the lesson that we are to learn for our advancement. The Guru can be the Wind, the Sky, the tree, even the water being drained in a sink!

When we have made the choice to advance spiritually, God will use anyone & anything to get the lesson and message across.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by iamthat

The difference is that presidents, kings, queens, etc are just ordinary people in a particular role. And while I would not bow down before most spiritual teachers, there are a few exceptions in spiritual history. This is not "grovelling", this is not giving my power away, this is simply acknowledging a state of spiritual attainment which far surpasses my own.

I would not call presidents and royalties ordinary people in society. They hold significant power.

No human is worth bowing down to, it is indeed grovelling, you give power and authority to that person. The guru/disciple relationship cannot be there without authoritarianism in place. It may not be as visible as master/slave or king/civilian, as it happens in ashrams and the private sphere, but it is still there. Guru's also make a habit out of associating happy thoughts of a follower with the guru through guru pictures for instance.

I've read a lot of such stories. It is sad and people should be mindful and not give their power away and surrender to someone.

Any spiritual community or practice under guidance should ideally be as clean as possible, and that's something not easily found out there.

Of course few people on this forum will agree with me on any of this, but if at least one person thinks '''hmm.. I may just investigate and keep a sharp mind'' than it's something.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Altair

I would not call presidents and royalties ordinary people in society. They hold significant power.

Any power that they might hold is the power that comes with their particular role. In terms of consciousness, they are no different to anyone else.

Originally Posted by Altair

No human is worth bowing down to, it is indeed grovelling, you give power and authority to that person. The guru/disciple relationship cannot be there without authoritarianism in place. It may not be as visible as master/slave or king/civilian, as it happens in ashrams and the private sphere, but it is still there. Guru's also make a habit out of associating happy thoughts of a follower with the guru through guru pictures for instance.

I've read a lot of such stories. It is sad and people should be mindful and not give their power away and surrender to someone.

What you say does apply to many spiritual teachers and their followers, past and present. Which is why I make a distinction between spiritual teachers and genuine gurus.

Spiritual teachers may attract hundreds or thousands of followers who bow down and hope for some kind of acknowledgement from the teacher. They may have all sorts of experiences in the presence of such a teacher, but how many of these followers attain any kind of permanent spiritual realisation?

The genuine guru/disciple relationship is different - it is a two way commitment. The disciple commits to the guru, the guru commits to the disciple. The purpose of this relationship is that the disciple attains spiritual liberation by following the practical instructions given, and is guided by the guru along the way.

To use Miss H.'s example from an earlier post, a spiritual teacher can tell you about Paris and even give you instructions on how to get there, the genuine guru will take you to Paris and show you the sights.

You seem to associate surrender with giving away our power. I associate surrender with letting go of our false separate identity. Surrender is the key to spiritual realisation, and the real surrender is the surrender of the lower separate self to the Higher spiritual Self.

Peace