So, God wants us to be perfect, right?

I look at it as a shared universe. What I do affects myself, of course, but also what I do can affect others, and what others do can affect me. The universe itself is also a player in this, obviously.

Some just understand and utilize this third player better. It really is better than magic, and much less mysterious.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Hello Members

I have taken out the back and forth "chatter" in the thread. This does not lead to good quality discussions. Here is the original post topic. If you want individual back and forth debate take that to Personal Message.

Lynn
SF Admin

So, God wants us to be perfect, right?


All religions and belief systems tell us that God wants us to be perfect. That we are basically faulty and need to strive to get fixed. This is interestingly the only area where all beliefs meet, whether it is a Catholic, New Age witch, occultist or whatever, all say 'God' wants us to make ourselves perfect, find our so called higher self or something similar. Even Satanists strive to be the perfect person, as they see it. It is basically all the same thing in different wrapping.

It goes like this...

1.You are inferior to higher beings, higher self or god or God.
2. You have to become the acceptable version of perfect (for your particular belief system) to *ascend* (aka be accepted by the beings *higher* than you.

But what if that is wrong?

What if we should be striving to be imperfect? (I don't mean the 'soft' approach to spirituality).

Thank you for your intervention, Lynn and I understand now...some associations are just not meant to be made and I shall endeavour to stay on topic in the future.

I agree with you. To be a 'perfect something' we need to understand what that is and what it entails...however, it is also said "only the devil deals in absolutes".

To my mind (and way of thinking) being "perfect" means to understand that the whole world...the whole universe is only an illusion (Maya) which I do not create. It is created by the female energy (Shakti) of the Divine (Shiva) and I am not a part of it, nor do I influence it in any way (I only mistakenly think/believe that I do) and this is called Mithyatva or 'false perception' and it is where the word 'myth' comes from....the whole universe is an 'urban legend'.

To transcend the illusion...not to be attached to this Maya...to see reality for what it is and not what it only appears to be, to sideline the ego in the process in total heart-surrender to the Source or the All and to totally transcend this mortal frame and plane, achieving Samadhi/Paranirvana or Moksha is what 'perfection' means to me.

Now, whether God wants it or not is totally irrelevant because that is still part of Maya.

Suffice to say...I am not perfect but parts of me are excellent.

[davidsun]

On the Idea of Perfection

In I Corinthians Ch.13, Paul wrote: “When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Here is my musing on what might he may have meant by that:

To be perfectly something, means to be completely or purely that; and in that sense, to be absolutely that.

Spiritually speaking, the evolution of Cosmic Consciousness and Universal Love may be regarded as being a progressive process wherein a soul’s ‘limitations’ and/or ‘impurities’ in these regards [which derive from (petty) selfishness] are gradually overcome or transcended, such that one’s Awareness and Devotion in relation to the FLOW of LIFE (a/k/a Spirit) and others that are a part IT becomes All-inclusive, which is to say that one becomes perfectly Conscious and Loving.

The process of perfection may then be understood to be one of growth resulting in maturation (leading to and involving the ‘blossoming’ of ‘flowers’, the ‘ripening’ of ‘fruit’, and ‘dispensing’ of ‘seeds’) in the foregoing Consciousness-and-Love regards.

The ‘part’ that is ‘done away’ with (in Paul’s statement) is selfishness, both in terms of ‘sense’ of one’s actual ‘i’dentity and in terms of one’s motivation.

A fully mature (in the foregoing sense) person/soul is one who is no longer selfish and (in that sense) is perfectly Conscious and Loving.

Some regard such kind of perfection to be either what ‘God’ desires or ‘Reality’ dictates as being ‘necessary’ for one to experience complete ‘happiness’ and so they desire to become and be perfect in the above regard for that reason.

Others simply regard it as functionally desireable and seek and choose to become more, and if possible, finally perfectly so because they grok that ‘head’ing and ‘heart’ing in that ‘direction’ both feels ‘good’ and does 'good' (i.e. it enriches their Life-experience as well as the Life-experiences of others).

Others still, just stumble in that direction, bass-ackwards (so to speak ), because the exigencies of incarnate Life tend to, again euphemistically speaking, ‘kick the cr*p out of’ those who remain obdurately selfish – this ‘brownian motion’ (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_motion) kind of movement may go on for many lifetimes, till they finally ‘catch on’ to the truth about the universe-ality of Life’s process and join those in the preceding (categorial) group, though, based on my understanding of reincarnational dynamics, some never do!

Folks in the first of the above three categories often get ‘stuck’ in circularly selfish thinking and feeling loop-patterns no matter how much ‘good’ they experience and 'do', because their seeking to be perfect is intrinsically selfishly motivated.

Caveat: Life’s ‘ways’ are so interactively intricate that they become convoluted beyond description. I am just speaking generally in the above ‘categorical’ regards.

[davidsun]

P.S. to Ligthseer, if you are still around:

What exactly did you mean when you asked:

Originally Posted by Lightseer

What if we should be striving to be imperfect? (I don't mean the 'soft' approach to spirituality).

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Suffice to say...I am not perfect but parts of me are excellent.

And that makes you uniquely perfect for the 'job' of being you.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

And that makes you uniquely perfect for the 'job' of being you.

Yep.

I have over a terabyte of 'spiritual stuff' that I downloaded off Youtube using YTD.

If you put all the videos end to end, they would go for about a year straight...and I am particularly selective with what goes on my external hard-drive.

There are quite a few 'Buddha At The Gaspump' interviews...some stuff by Marianne Williamson, Igor Kufayev, Craig Holliday, Sally Kempton, Kashmir Shaivism, 'Spirit Science' and Goetia just to name a few things.

I usually have it randomly running all the time for inspiration.

Last night, I was about to go to sleep and something came on...I was blown away...it was "Reclaim your Power" by Matt Kahn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NllANrBt1rQ

I haven't heard much of his stuff before...but it's about time I did, because it is beyond awesome.

Throughout the entire video, I was gazing at an image of Shiva and it sounded like the words were coming straight from His mind into mine...what an amazing experience!

Love and Light. =)

[Joe Mc]

That the notion of perfection exists at all is a miracle. That you have the apparatus to conceive of this perfection is a miracle in itself. You can think about it, you can express it, you can be it too because you are it. The basic concept of coercion i definitely get, whereby, a religion using notions to engender guilt and unworthiness in a human being. That you must be perfect but you never will be, that type of thing i understand as being not good at all.

But why would you even be born with the notions of perfection, hope, goodness. I say these notions particularly perfection are hardwired in us and are not the result of religion but religion is resulting from them. We are all 'Dancing with them' even if it is in darkness. 'Dancing in the Dark'.lol. I mean the 'Warlord', The Pyriah etc. have notions of perfection, The perfect gun, the perfect murder, the perfect destruction.

I suppose a big question is trying to find expression in the world, trying to make it better, guided by 'the perfection' in this pursuit. As Kevin Rowland (Dexy's Midnight Runners) said, Let's make this Precious !!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8Ae0TfhK8M !!!!

Another interesting version of the same song.. Begins @ 2.00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXw1Bdt31RM

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Greenslade, hello there...IMO genes don't define our soul, and most genetic expression is related to many genetic inputs and is somewhat to highly influenced by environment. No one gene is responsible for anything about the complex individuated consciousness that is you or me or any of us. Humans all produce the VMAT2 gene as a part of many normal neurological and digestive and cardiac processes...the maximization of the neurotransmitters produced by VMAT2 (seratonin, dopamine, adrenaline) is "genetic" in part but also highly influenced by environment. For example, the use of many hard or psychotropic drugs alters or shuts down the functionality of VMAT2 and its outputs.

Having said that, I do understand that our physical reality, including our genes, represent both challenges and opportunities for growth. Sometimes more of the challenges but usually that too implies both, should we choose to take conscious choices. An extreme case is Steven Hawking, who faced immense challenges to simply existing but who brought immense dignity and raised awareness and acceptance of the reality and worth of those living with physical challenges. We've all got our challenges, whether physical, emotional, or mental...though most of us fall somewhere else on the spectrum, LOL.

If we are limited genetically, it is mostly in the spiritual and emotional senses, IMO, just as you mentioned. For example, narcissism or psychopathy are both true spiritual burdens for the individual, which require effort and vigiliance and entail great suffering IMO for those who have to deal with this over their lifetime. It also inflicts a great deal of pain upon those close to these folks. There are different lessons learnt here and hopefully we are all not too severely burnt or damaged in the end as we move on, LOL...

The question for me is this. We can choose a suitable body with DNA matches etc, that's fine. The puzzle is that you said that if we didn't find a suitable match then we could wait until one does, and that's what started off the questions. What if time was a factor and it took a long time for a match to be found? And I realise I'm not using the right words but this is a completely new concept. Within a Soul Group there's a number of Souls who all decide to incarnate together, that's a lot of matching going on at one time. For me that puts Spiritual development as much at the mercy of random evolution as Spirit's choice. The chances of finding the right combination must be silly-to-one, unless we take a close match, in which case Spiritual development becomes pot luck.


If a certain combination of your genes had been switched differently, for instance, your brain wouldn't have been able to process Spirituality. Sometimes not being Spiritual isn't a choice for some, it's a brain function the same as being Spiritual is. But it's one of a wide range of other factors like - as you say, emotions, physicality and quite a few others.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I get this and I think it's a compromise. You need the timing and the location, generally. But you may need even more to be healthy and strong, so that you can cope with the spiritual or emotional challenges that you may need to face, particularly if you were unable to face them well or fully in a prior lifetime. So in that case, the body's constitution may take priority and you may end up across the ocean from your close soul fam, or as you say, perhaps froma different era than theirs. Sometimes this sort of compromise is the best you can do, simply so that you can live a full lifetime or enough of it to meet your challenges and experiences.

Perhaps I'm looking for a neat package but I don't feel as though I have answers, my gut feeling says it doesn't make sense and I tend to rely on that. It's kinda hard to think that Spirit would have to 'make do' as best it can.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Some interesting ones, no doubt. There is a larger collective story going on as well.

The biggy for me would be to unlock our genetic memory. Perhaps I'll come back generations from now as a genetics doctor and play with the DNA of my progeny.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

That's not how I see it at all. It's the journey that is everything, not the "goal". If you see my response to Daz you may get a better feel.

I have all of eternity to find answers, and only this Lifetime for now to enjoy the wonder of not knowing and feeling excited at having so much yet to explore.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Yes, he and they had the right of it. The energy of Jesus is something that is powerful and transformative because it is both compassion and justice/equanimity, lovingkindness and awe/strength. There is a simple acceptance of what is right aligned and what is not...where we are missing the mark, honestly and without denial or subterfuge, and direct action (word and deed) to address that and to better align ourselves with who we are at centre.

Who we are at centre is what we journey to better apprehend. Do we feel we are in truth the man or woman who chooses right alignment? Or, TBH, do we feel at present we are the drugs-loving wh*remonger? If that's who we are are at the mo, then first thing we do, let's kill all the self deception (and leave the lawyers alone, LOL). Who knows? After a time or a lifetime or several, with growing acceptance and ownership of our actions and their outcomes....perhaps we'll revise and re-evaluate who we are at centre, and it'll be a different man than the drugs-loving philander we are at present.

It would be nice to say that Jesus wore his trousers the same way as I did, but that wasn't his mode of attire. He had a temper on him and he was put in his place by a woman of very loose (according to the Bible) moral standards a few times. Even at the end he showed his human side because he felt forsaken, although I can only wonder at how I might have been in his place. I also wonder at the genetic combination it took and in the right place at the right time to be the Son of God. No I'm not mocking you, just trying to makes some sense out of it all.



I'd think that Jesus had made the choices he did before he incarnated, and the people who played their part in his crucifixion did the very same. The bad guys have their Karmic Obligations and Souls inside them the same as the good guys, and if Spirit is so much Unconditional Love what does it take to make the choice to crucify someone?

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

It's good you accept things as they are as the alternative would inevitably be a derivative hell of our own making, borne of our own uninformed cherry-picking. We cannot change what has been. Though it's not wrong to NOT ever want to experience something again. That is the kind of clear message that gets through to spirit and is transformative on the soul. For example, after my first lifetime, I never wanted to use my position or gifts to exploit or harm others. That regret and that understanding was transformative and has spanned lifetimes. What it comes down to is at this point in human development (Gaian), the road well-travelled is usually always the wrong one, because it is easy and plays to ego and to the use of our strengths to exploit the weak.

What we can change is our perspective and our hearts and minds. I understand your regrets about not being able to mend fences or offer forgiveness...IMO those are the only sorts of regrets that matter, that and regretting not spending time with or expressing love to those you love.

I made a simple choice, I asked myself what I wanted to Live with in my heart. At the time it worked and I've never looked back. Even today I still think that way, there are things I regret but everything looks different in hindsight. The theme for this Lifetime seems to be about feeling powerless yet still finding what I need to come through it.


At the time I had a narrow window to forgive my step-father, and I was wrestling with the reasons to forgive or not. If I had him eye-to-eye, would I revert back to 'those days'? Was I going to forgive him because I could and genuinely felt that for him or was I doing it to spite him? Another large factor was time and geography, because not long afterwards I moved to over 600 miles away.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I think that is right on point from my perspective as well. It's an expression of love and of faith (gam zu l'tova) to incarnate and have experiences here. Many of which will involve at least some close soul fam whom you've known before...some of whom may have hurt you badly or made misaligned choices which harmed you. Your choice to be here and do this again here and now is a gift to them, and they to you. How you each rise to the occasion is another thing...some rise and some fall or fail to rise adequately. We can each choose to treat one another kindly and wlth love and compassion and justice (where our highest good is equal to theirs and theirs to ours), or not. Clearly, if we are the child and they are the adult, there is also a clear difference in power and responsibility.

If you can and you're up to it, it's always good to give folks another chance to rise in the same lifetime. But if they fail to take it (much less to initiate or offer), that's why Jesus said seven times seven. Continue to forgive them their apathy or amorality, their self-absorption, their justifications, their rejections of your good intentions if you did reach out, and so forth. At that point, all you can do is leave the door open for possibilities. I suppose that's why we keep coming back...still more to do and be, and still loads more to mend and reconcile face-to-face in the flesh, where it's often difficult. Forgiving and reconciling deep harms in spirit isn't cake by any means and it can be deeply insightful, but it's still not as demanding and deeply healing as forgiving and reconciling in the flesh. Because it shows that there has been a deeper, more lasting transformation in the soul that has carried forth to this moment and made tangible.

Peace & blessings
7L

I like to keep things as simple as possible because that gives me a point of reference to expand out from. I think we did Love ourselves enough - and others - to give ourselves this experience. I tend not to think of things as being in our 'highest good' because that leaves me open to conflict about just what that is - was the abuse towards my highest good or not? I think it was while many would say it wasn't, and while I Loved myself enough to give myself that experience didn't others Love me enough to play their part? To be honest I think sometimes human morality just gets in the way, or is it a lack of responsibility for our choices? Transcending those brings so many realisations.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Yep.

I have over a terabyte of 'spiritual stuff' that I downloaded off Youtube using YTD.

If you put all the videos end to end, they would go for about a year straight...and I am particularly selective with what goes on my external hard-drive.

There are quite a few 'Buddha At The Gaspump' interviews...some stuff by Marianne Williamson, Igor Kufayev, Craig Holliday, Sally Kempton, Kashmir Shaivism, 'Spirit Science' and Goetia just to name a few things.

I usually have it randomly running all the time for inspiration.

Last night, I was about to go to sleep and something came on...I was blown away...it was "Reclaim your Power" by Matt Kahn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NllANrBt1rQ

I haven't heard much of his stuff before...but it's about time I did, because it is beyond awesome.

Throughout the entire video, I was gazing at an image of Shiva and it sounded like the words were coming straight from His mind into mine...what an amazing experience!

Love and Light. =)

You have always been here, but you have to go where you're not to realise that.


Matt is brilliant and he doesn't wear a floppy hat and flowery dress. He's very down-to-earth yet makes so much sense it just hits the spot. There's an interesting 'feel' that you're on the right track to this if it means anything, but I'd guess you'd know that already.


Safe Journey.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You have always been here, but you have to go where you're not to realise that.


Matt is brilliant and he doesn't wear a floppy hat and flowery dress. He's very down-to-earth yet makes so much sense it just hits the spot. There's an interesting 'feel' that you're on the right track to this if it means anything, but I'd guess you'd know that already.


Safe Journey.

Thank you my friend.

To whom it may concern,

If one is still attached to the mind, ego or body, the transition to the "Light Body" after the Ascension process can be frought with difficulty.

The aim of Ascension is to place us directly in touch with our "Higher Self/Selves" (some may have more than one) and for the Higher Powers to tell us what we need to do to keep our physical, mental and spiritual bodies "stable" and disease free to make the transition process easier.

Often, it entails a very drastic lifestyle change, and basically none of the things you did before out of habit..What made the ego comfortable no longer apply...and of course, the ego is going to kick up a huge stink about this...but there will be very bad consequences if and whenever it does.

For example, I have been advised that I need to go to sleep at 8pm and wake up at 6am, as I require 10 hours sleep during this phase of my transition. I was doing that for an entire week...then, one night, three days ago, I stayed up until midnight watching re-runs of the X-Files..I woke up at 10am the next day with a terrible migraine and it has not gone, despite anything I try.

I was advised to drink 2 litres of water a day....did that for a couple of weeks, went for three days only drinking about half a litre...My skin went all dry, scaly and itchy and I broke out in rashes everywhere.

I have been advised (by my Higher Self) that I am deficient in trace minerals, Magnesium, Zinc, Phosphorus, Potassium etc, so I am taking a supplement...and I spray magnesium on my skin every night... today, I was able to jog, after not being able to do so for about ten years...but jogging with a migraine is no fun whatsoever. LOL

Still, everything around me is very "dreamy" and it feels like I am awake, but dreaming at the same time... totally disconnected from everything around me... apparently, this is all "par for the course".

Meanwhile, there is the whole process of "letting go" because it is impossible to fight it anyway and the sooner that is realised, the easier it becomes. Kundalini loves to do weird things to my body... everything from random chest pain to the skin on my scalp creeping, like somebody is massaging my head, to intense heat and pressure at the base of my skull and up and down the vagus nerve. If I concentrate on this discomfort and try to fight it, it increases in intensity or causes other secondary problems like weakness, paralysis or seizures...and so, I just have to let it go with love, basically saying "if you are going to kill me, then do it".

I still haven't totally lost the fear of death...but I am slowly getting over it.