So, God wants us to be perfect, right?

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Starman

This is an interesting discussion, and to add my two cents; I believe that a lot of people
think of God as an objective creator with human traits and characteristics because in the
Christian Bible it says, paraphrasing, God created man in his own image and likeness.
A number of religions believe this.

So especially in countries, like the U.S., where Christianity is the dominant religion,
this premise is seen as a predicate for God as a person similar to human beings. I was raised
a Christian and also believed that until I found the divine spark of “GOD” that is within me.

From a metaphysical perspective, I came to realize that the likeness of God is within me,
and that my physical body, and this physical universe, was nothing more than an image
projected by that divine energy. The same energy that I found within me, which I often
call “God.” These days for me, that which I call God is omnipresent. It is the one and only
true state of being; and in that state of being there is no “I,” or "me."

The word “God” originated in misogynistic patriarchal cultures that believed in a highest deity
who oversaw all of creation, and that deity was a man. An that man, God, dispenses justice,
rewards and punishments, to those in his creation. It is not my intention to knock anyone’s beliefs,
but I do find it interesting that most who use the word “God” do not see God as a female.

That which I refer to as “God” is indescribable, beyond thoughts, words, and concepts. An in my
opinion “perfection” is but a human concept. I had to laugh when I read something that Katy Perry
said, she loves dogs, and she said the word dog is god spelled backwards. In my opinion, if there
is something called “ultimate perfection” our human minds could not grasp it.

Hey there Starman...I am wading back in to this most excellent thread after several days off.

Shivani, Davidsun. Baile, Greenslade and others have had quite an interesting discussion...will get there shortly.

I just want to say that these older religious traditions -- all of the biggies embody a fair amount of misogyny and elitism, East and West -- reflecting the culture themes of the day (still present).
Interestingly, several of those appear to have been inspired by contact with divine beings who appeared at least in some way to have been more advanced (re: civilising technologies) and if transcendent beings, to have been wiser as well.

So we worshipped them, sought to emulate the transcendent ones, and along the way humanity began to realise that they were proxies for the One or the Great Spirit, which comprises all of us and all that is, just as we in turn comprise What is uniquely, variously, and fractally. These constructs are simply that, and at best will serve as pointers or as "lamps on the path" for each of us and for humanity's collective progress.

But...many probably still have yet to make that leap.
And if so, then they may still have some need of those constructs and the basic guidance and strictures they provide. Amoral utilitarianism and dehumanisation is not a step up from the older ways, as heavy handed as they too were, but rather more a sideways or even backwards step. A variant on the baseness that always existed for exploitation by the corrupt and the powerful.

If you give a man a gun and tell him the power of life and death is in his hands and is completely up to his whim and his moods, many would give it back if not under attack. But a toddler might recklessly shoot all the kids in the sandbox that he didn't like, because many toddler are still somewhat amoral...And that's why they are given playground rules that dictate why and how to play nice. Because they're not there yet.

When they are there...and let's not presume that happens automatically with physical adulthood or with age, either one...

...then they would never hurt another knowingly and without just cause. And they would never take it lightly. Because it's about us and all others, equally.

Peace & blessings
7L

[davidsun]

Have missed your input, 7L! Very articulate, as usual.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

This is the key isn't it .

It the duality key .

All these weaknesses and excellences and imperfections are all self reflected upon what we are which eventually leads to that which is beyond such reflections .

In a way we consciously or unconsciously try and emulate what we are beyond fear and judgement and all that jazz because there is an essence of that inherent with each of us . It's the divine spark so to speak .

We are in essence holding up a mirror to ourselves and observing what is imperfect .

It is okay on a superficial level to accept our warty faces and love our big ears and knobbly knees but there is something far deeper and greater than that which pulls us in a way back to beyond the reflection .

I think it's a natural pull and we are magnetised to be what we are in the most natural and purest of form for use of a better word .

This is why the search for Self and the Love for Self is multidimensional and entertains a billion self fragments / fractals ..

x daz x

Hey there Dazzer...nicely said.
A very concise and nuanced discussion of Source and how we are of Source and are Source, both. As we come to reveal and know ourselves more deeply, so does Source reveal and apprehend What Is more truly. That is an ancient Kabbalistic and Taoist teaching, both. My two favourites.

One of the best definitions of Source, that last bit of yours above. As you say, source is in process of becoming. Just as we are in process of becoming. The joy and the discovery is not in the arrival (of perfection) but is always in the act of becoming. Of doing and of being. Of taking small decisions in each moment to be kind, to be honourable, and to be equanimous (one day I will not have to look up that word , because it'll be known by all)...that is, to act with equanimity. And this realisation too is itself a source of joy and illumination. That is, to be present and to take conscious choices is itself a source of great joy and illumination, sublime and otherwise. This is the sublime joy of being that is so hard to convey but which must be lived and experienced by each of us.

There is something deeper, yes, and we are drawn to who we are at centre, the purest and truest stuff of who we are, like a moth to a flame...but where only the dross is purged whilst the remnant core expands and transforms in ways that only the mystics see clearly but which we all feel in subtle and intricate ways within ourselves.

Peace & blessings Daz
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I apologise that I missed this and I realise that you are offering a hand out of the hole. Thank you for your kind consideration.

About adopting a pet...

Back in 2000, my mum bought a puppy...a little shih tzu and I really liked him. In 2010, mum fell over and broke her hip and couldn't look after him anymore...she was going to give him to the pound, but I said I would care for him, so that she could still visit him when she visited me.

We had such great times...I remember him licking the water off my legs when I got out of the shower...I remember him loving to eat salad...how he would sit next to me when I was watching TV and just put his paw on my arm and how, every night, he would sit on the floor beside my bed 'guarding' me...yes, I loved that dog.

Then two years ago, the poor thing got pneumonia and died in my arms...one last look...one last little tail wag...then nothing. I cried for three days straight and that was the last thing I ever felt.

After that, I swore I would never get another dog/pet. I couldn't go through that ever again and if this is selfish of me, so be it. Because even if I am selfish, that's just me 'being myself' and it's a part of who I am that I don't wish to change....because for all my life, I have only had myself to rely on for survival.

Shivani, loss is hard and my heart goes out to you. You lost a member of your family, one who really loved you as you are, and it is ok to mourn. It took me 2 or 3 years to get over my prior pet's death and this one has already had a health scare, even though he's young yet. The terrible irony of this life is that the deeper your capacity to love, the deeper your capacity to feel pain.

I too have had some numb patches for months and years. The heart centre was completely cracked open. There is nothing wrong with living from equanimity and lovingkindness whilst we figure out how to live whilst feeling our emotions (again). I am still re-adjusting to emergence. What many would call a normal range of emotion. It's good on the whole, and IMO I feel a renewed appreciation and grace. The difference is that whilst your pain is still there, now you feel it, LOL. I feel the numbness is also a burden, so I think there is a huge lightness to our being with emergence. But it takes getting used to.

I think it's all a part of the spiritual journey, though that's not much consolation at all times. Still, I think that learning to cope with the fear of literal heartbreak, drowning, numbness, i.e., fear of feeling and fear of not feeling...these are among the most challenging aspects of the journey. Because the ignorance is gone and you're well aware of the pain at hand. And so now, your choices to engage and to care have real meaning, because real fortitude and vast courage is required at every turn.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Baile

I could have written that several years ago. Two decades in a spiritual cult -- the lies, betrayal and backstabbing -- wrecked me. After I left, it took me seven years to get back to something resembling normal. But I don't trust people anymore. Nor do I feel I need to, and I will never place myself in a situation where I'm relying on others to be truthful and honest.

I see that as taking control of my life and my psychic space. And it frees me up to happily enjoy people for who they are, rather than what I used to project I wished them to be. I actually enjoy people more now. I don't look to love people; I have no need in that regard. I look to interact with people in as open and honest a way as I can. I put it all on me, and I expect nothing of them, and I leave it at that.

Now if you are empty, and you desire love, and if that's what you are communicating... well that's a whole other conversation.

Baile, hello there.
I'm just picking out some deep thoughts here and seriously so.
I think many can relate to some degree (or quite a lot) with what you've said regarding acquaintances and strangers. Without reasonable and regular means of confirmation of many things, it's a wise course of action when dealing with those you don't know well or at all.

Also, to me your approach toward others is authentically loving in the sense that you bring your honest and open engagement to the moment or the exchange of conversation.

But we all need and deserve IMO at least a few souls in the world that know, love, and accept us as we are. Whom we can trust are being generally truthful and honest with us, and who have our highest good at heart and want our best. This is IMO a basic and simple right of humankind, albeit one we have yet to fully apprehend, accept, and manifest. Any relationship can be a source of manifest authentic love (lovingkindness and equanimity)...certainly family, friends, neighbours, partners, and communities of fellow travellers, a bit like sanghas.

The fact that we may not all have that day-to-day in our personal lives speaks far less to the intrinsic worth of such a need, desire, or perspective and more to the current state of humankind. Given your experiences, I think many understand your position. My hope is that one day it will generally not be necessary because we will better understand as a species how simple and how preferable it is to act with lovingkindness from a place of equanimity.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi there 7L

What's available and what you require? I haven't got around to reading David's post yet but that was one of the questions I had concerning Life's Purpose. If we can't choose our DNA/bodies as Spirit, what then? It only takes a gene to be switched the other way, our brains become hard-wired differently and we can't process Spirituality. Divinity has far less to do with our Spirituality than many would like to think, our DNA is a key factor. DNA also has a say in (a)Whether or not we believe in God and (b)our definition - because it is a definition - of perfect.

Greenslade, hello there...IMO genes don't define our soul, and most genetic expression is related to many genetic inputs and is somewhat to highly influenced by environment. No one gene is responsible for anything about the complex individuated consciousness that is you or me or any of us. Humans all produce the VMAT2 gene as a part of many normal neurological and digestive and cardiac processes...the maximization of the neurotransmitters produced by VMAT2 (seratonin, dopamine, adrenaline) is "genetic" in part but also highly influenced by environment. For example, the use of many hard or psychotropic drugs alters or shuts down the functionality of VMAT2 and its outputs.

Having said that, I do understand that our physical reality, including our genes, represent both challenges and opportunities for growth. Sometimes more of the challenges but usually that too implies both, should we choose to take conscious choices. An extreme case is Steven Hawking, who faced immense challenges to simply existing but who brought immense dignity and raised awareness and acceptance of the reality and worth of those living with physical challenges. We've all got our challenges, whether physical, emotional, or mental...though most of us fall somewhere else on the spectrum, LOL.

If we are limited genetically, it is mostly in the spiritual and emotional senses, IMO, just as you mentioned. For example, narcissism or psychopathy are both true spiritual burdens for the individual, which require effort and vigiliance and entail great suffering IMO for those who have to deal with this over their lifetime. It also inflicts a great deal of pain upon those close to these folks. There are different lessons learnt here and hopefully we are all not too severely burnt or damaged in the end as we move on, LOL...

I'm actually not disagreeing with you because I'm a huge fan of Life's Purpose etc but what I can't figure is the "resonant with your needs" part, because there are just too many factors that need to be an 'exact match'. And "you may need to pass?" There are sometimes things that need to be done in certain Lifetimes, and at certain ages in our Lives that have to synchronise with others. It's kinda hard to meet your childhood sweetheart when you passed and taken a body many years later and she's grown old in the meantime.

I get this and I think it's a compromise. You need the timing and the location, generally. But you may need even more to be healthy and strong, so that you can cope with the spiritual or emotional challenges that you may need to face, particularly if you were unable to face them well or fully in a prior lifetime. So in that case, the body's constitution may take priority and you may end up across the ocean from your close soul fam, or as you say, perhaps froma different era than theirs. Sometimes this sort of compromise is the best you can do, simply so that you can live a full lifetime or enough of it to meet your challenges and experiences.

I'll have to get around to it one day. I tried my family tree a while back but I lost track of it very quickly. 'Back in the day' illegitimate children were given to relative or family friends to bring up, and that's what happened with both of my parents and my grandmother. That's not documented so it doesn't show up in the genealogy but it does stop a search in its tracks. DNA won't be so easy to stop though and it might be interesting just to find out.

Some of us are still afraid of the dark and although I haven't seen any in a while, there have been discussions around 'Light good, dark scary' in the forums. Perhaps a genetic throw-back from the time we were prey for lions and tigers and bears, oh my. If we could unlock genetic memory not just of our own but in how we were interacting with each other, what stories would that tell of history and Spirituality?

Some interesting ones, no doubt. There is a larger collective story going on as well.

Agenda and doctrines seem to rule the day, and granted language is a bit of a handicap. To be honest all this 'who we are more truly' is something that resonates with me very badly. In Spirit everything is perfection, we are Unconditional Love but Utopia is very dystopian because where everything is perfection and Unconditional Loving there's only stagnation.

That's not how I see it at all. It's the journey that is everything, not the "goal". If you see my response to Daz you may get a better feel.

Jesus said that we should Love our neighbours/enemies as ourselves and every Christian worth their salt would say something similar - and not just Christians neither because it's been expressed in so many other religions.

Yes, he and they had the right of it. The energy of Jesus is something that is powerful and transformative because it is both compassion and justice/equanimity, lovingkindness and awe/strength. There is a simple acceptance of what is right aligned and what is not...where we are missing the mark, honestly and without denial or subterfuge, and direct action (word and deed) to address that and to better align ourselves with who we are at centre.

Who we are at centre is what we journey to better apprehend. Do we feel we are in truth the man or woman who chooses right alignment? Or, TBH, do we feel at present we are the drugs-loving wh*remonger? If that's who we are are at the mo, then first thing we do, let's kill all the self deception (and leave the lawyers alone, LOL). Who knows? After a time or a lifetime or several, with growing acceptance and ownership of our actions and their outcomes....perhaps we'll revise and re-evaluate who we are at centre, and it'll be a different man than the drugs-loving philander we are at present.

What I do know for sure is that if I hadn't been abused my Life would have been very different, because at the time the abuse was a counter-balance to other things that were going on at the time. Because I was 'changed' it's affected so many and if I had the time to relive my Life I wouldn't change a damned thing. My only real regret is that I never got to look my abuser in the eye and give him my forgiveness, the question was whether I was doing it to spite him or not.

Going back to the OP, that's what I would think God wants - for things like this to happen to us. And indeed it does time and time again, and in far worse circumstances than I went through. That has my admiration, not a treatise on an ideology that has as much 'substance' as a whimsy - albeit a very Spiritually technical and eloquent one.

It's good you accept things as they are as the alternative would inevitably be a derivative hell of our own making, borne of our own uninformed cherry-picking. We cannot change what has been. Though it's not wrong to NOT ever want to experience something again. That is the kind of clear message that gets through to spirit and is transformative on the soul. For example, after my first lifetime, I never wanted to use my position or gifts to exploit or harm others. That regret and that understanding was transformative and has spanned lifetimes. What it comes down to is at this point in human development (Gaian), the road well-travelled is usually always the wrong one, because it is easy and plays to ego and to the use of our strengths to exploit the weak.

What we can change is our perspective and our hearts and minds. I understand your regrets about not being able to mend fences or offer forgiveness...IMO those are the only sorts of regrets that matter, that and regretting not spending time with or expressing love to those you love.

Our connections are becoming more and more tenuous on the whole I think, people are connected from themselves and others and off-the-grid living seems to be gaining popularity.

To be honest I'm not sure that we are Loving kindness and equanimity at our core, or at least perhaps Spirit's perspective of what constitutes Love seems to be different enough to the human perspective. If there was a Karmic Agreement between my abuser and I? Perhaps a better question is, if I came here for my Spiritual development did I Love myself enough to give myself this experience? To me that's one of the few questions that point to a meaningful answer.

I think that is right on point from my perspective as well. It's an expression of love and of faith (gam zu l'tova) to incarnate and have experiences here. Many of which will involve at least some close soul fam whom you've known before...some of whom may have hurt you badly or made misaligned choices which harmed you. Your choice to be here and do this again here and now is a gift to them, and they to you. How you each rise to the occasion is another thing...some rise and some fall or fail to rise adequately. We can each choose to treat one another kindly and wlth love and compassion and justice (where our highest good is equal to theirs and theirs to ours), or not. Clearly, if we are the child and they are the adult, there is also a clear difference in power and responsibility.

If you can and you're up to it, it's always good to give folks another chance to rise in the same lifetime. But if they fail to take it (much less to initiate or offer), that's why Jesus said seven times seven. Continue to forgive them their apathy or amorality, their self-absorption, their justifications, their rejections of your good intentions if you did reach out, and so forth. At that point, all you can do is leave the door open for possibilities. I suppose that's why we keep coming back...still more to do and be, and still loads more to mend and reconcile face-to-face in the flesh, where it's often difficult. Forgiving and reconciling deep harms in spirit isn't cake by any means and it can be deeply insightful, but it's still not as demanding and deeply healing as forgiving and reconciling in the flesh. Because it shows that there has been a deeper, more lasting transformation in the soul that has carried forth to this moment and made tangible.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Have missed your input, 7L! Very articulate, as usual.

Aww....thanks so much David
I have enjoyed your inputs too!

Peace & blessings
7L

[Shivani Devi]

Why I do not believe I create my own universe...and this is open to input.

If I create my own universe, so does everybody else, and many times the universe that another creates is in total diametric juxtaposition to the one I create, leading to a complete stalemate.

It is like two trucks going in opposite directions on a narrow road and neither can pass...each must back up about 10 kilometers to let the other pass, but neither will give an inch.

In such cases, the one with the most money, the most 'friends in high places', the better lawyer, the most physical brute strength etc gets to create their universe, whilst the one who doesn't have these things, does not.

I require physiotherapy rather urgently...I have been to my doctor who has referred me to a clinic...and I have been placed on their 'waiting list' which I have been informed can take anywhere from 12-18 months...and so, the people that got in before me, get to create their universe first, while I wait in pain...did I create the 'waiting list?' did I create the laws of this country?

Hence my disbelief in all matters 'spiritual'. In fact, I don't really have ANY traits that makes a spiritual person 'spiritual' and I have often asked myself if I am really 'spiritual' in light of all that...but to me at least, there is no doubt of it whereas another may disagree...but there's no 'Degree of Spirituality'...nobody can take a 'Doctorate of Spirituality'...and so people can get away with saying and believing whatever they like and the ONLY person it makes any difference to is themselves.

[Lynn]

Hello Members

I have taken out the back and forth "chatter" in the thread. This does not lead to good quality discussions. Here is the original post topic. If you want individual back and forth debate take that to Personal Message.

Lynn
SF Admin

So, God wants us to be perfect, right?


All religions and belief systems tell us that God wants us to be perfect. That we are basically faulty and need to strive to get fixed. This is interestingly the only area where all beliefs meet, whether it is a Catholic, New Age witch, occultist or whatever, all say 'God' wants us to make ourselves perfect, find our so called higher self or something similar. Even Satanists strive to be the perfect person, as they see it. It is basically all the same thing in different wrapping.

It goes like this...

1.You are inferior to higher beings, higher self or god or God.
2. You have to become the acceptable version of perfect (for your particular belief system) to *ascend* (aka be accepted by the beings *higher* than you.

But what if that is wrong?

What if we should be striving to be imperfect? (I don't mean the 'soft' approach to spirituality).

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Why I do not believe I create my own universe...and this is open to input.

If I create my own universe, so does everybody else, and many times the universe that another creates is in total diametric juxtaposition to the one I create, leading to a complete stalemate.

It is like two trucks going in opposite directions on a narrow road and neither can pass...each must back up about 10 kilometers to let the other pass, but neither will give an inch.

In such cases, the one with the most money, the most 'friends in high places', the better lawyer, the most physical brute strength etc gets to create their universe, whilst the one who doesn't have these things, does not.

I require physiotherapy rather urgently...I have been to my doctor who has referred me to a clinic...and I have been placed on their 'waiting list' which I have been informed can take anywhere from 12-18 months...and so, the people that got in before me, get to create their universe first, while I wait in pain...did I create the 'waiting list?' did I create the laws of this country?

We could consider the universe as a shared objective reality within which we each have our own unique subjective experience. But the idea that everyone creates their own universe does not mean that each person can manifest whatever they want in life.

I suggest that there is a creative force flowing through each one of us, and that creative force is modified (or even blocked) by our conscious and subconscious mental and emotional filters. Our subjective experiences are the outpicturings of this modified creative force. So the universe that we each experience is a mirror of our own internal states.

It is not a case of whoever has the most money, the most 'friends in high places', the better lawyer, the most physical brute strength, etc gets to create their universe while others do not. We all get to create our own experience, even if we sometimes do not like the experience which we have created.

So if Shivani Devi has to wait 12-18 months for physiotherapy it does not mean that those ahead in the queue got to create their universes first. It simply means that for whatever reason Shivani Devi has created this particular subjective experience.

If we change our internal states then there will be a corresponding change in our "external" world.

Peace