Spiritual growth: the real determinant

[Starman]

What is the determinant for a moth to fly towards a flame, presumably knowing it can get burnt? It may just be pure attraction, and unbreakable magnetic condition which compels compliance.

Reasons can be whatever we want them to be given limited perspective. In reasoning analysis is often used to break a thing a part and attempt to examine each part; but in synthesis we embrace the whole as it is, coming to understand how it functions within itself as a whole.

Of course, this is to whatever degree we can embrace the whole, or perceive what is beyond our own personal experience. I have given up on trying to make sense out of things.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Starman

Reasons can be whatever we want them to be given limited perspective. In reasoning analysis is often used to break a thing a part and attempt to examine each part; but in synthesis we embrace the whole as it is, coming to understand how it functions within itself as a whole.

i like this. but i think there is no reason I can't make reasons, just, the default in my perceptions is that if I make reasons my reasons will start leading to more and more reasons why things cannot happen and I'll just be adding bars to my cage!

I also think that I personally will never completely understand the 'whole' whatever that is... i have no idea though whether that is a limitation others would share. I'm starting to like this idea though, that I can't possibly know 'the' answer!

not that i think it much matters, I'm having fun moving around in my crib!

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

it made sense to me It isn't something I could do in a 'complete' way with my own mind I don't think. ...

Yeah I like to align myself to the way is many, so if I do, I’m more directly seeing and meeting things as they are. Including myself.

I think as humans we all hold potential but often people decide this is how ‘I am’ and don’t look at the potential in themselves. It’s just how I am, they’ll say, but often I’ve found they haven’t opened to what could be. Even without knowing, potential is abound.

For me wholistic simply means the whole person, so it’s a consideration of all things you can see and know but also being open to more as it’s presented to you ongoing.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Starman

JustBe, Spiritual matters are often spoke of in metaphors, parables, and the like because it is a different dimension, and the spoken language we use sometimes may be inadequate.

I see it differently to you, moving through a spiritual experience, may not make sense initially and you don’t have to try to analyse it, but often my own after the fact, develop their own understanding and connection that gathers wisdom and awareness of processors. If we process an experience deeply, what awakens is the follow on of understanding as deep as it takes you into such things, into your own abilities.

So in this way, the chaos and order become the wisdom.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Yeah I like to align myself to the way is many, so if I do, I’m more directly seeing and meeting things as they are. Including myself.

Any more i think the same, there are many ways and it is more authentic to understand that and relate more openly to what is in front of you than to choose one 'perfect' way to always relate regardless of what is happening around you.

maybe there is a slight difference though in that I don't beleive I can know how things actually are. I believe that whatever I do, there is likely to be something 'unreal' in what I'm thinking. I don't believe I will ever have a 'perfect' map of reality.

And I'm ok with that, in a sense I welcome it. But that doesn't stop me from trying to relagte more 'authentically' ti whatever my experience is anyway. I just understsand that that is just another part of the way I relate

It’s just how I am, they’ll say, but often I’ve found they haven’t opened to what could be. Even without knowing, potential is abound.

I'm not sure how important it is to be open to simply everything... or to know simply everything... sometimes asking people to do more than they actually want to do is equally unkind as many of the other stupid things I've done...

but at the same time the 'sickness' I have found in myself is my ongoing desire to place limitations on life that don't need to be there... ad infinitum... i either think something 'should' be there or i think something should 'not' be there and then instead of relating to what is actually in front of me there is a lot of activity to try to relate to whatever I think it is vs what I think it should be.... i think others may feel the same subconciously... which speaks directly to what yo usaid 'potential is abound'... as I've found in my own life the main reason potential isn't achieved is because of this desire to assume it can't be and then act accordingly... Very much what you said about saying 'this is what I am' and not going beyond that...

i also think, tghere is no way to communicate with others to find a way out of such a desire as I have because any conception for what to do would just be taken as another 'should' either by me or by anyone silly enough to listen to me lol... and that is why it seems to me to be so important for us just to take a break sometimes and let ourselves be openj to the things that are actually happening. Instead of what we think we are limited to seeing or the things wish to be seeing.

[/quote]

[Starman]

My understanding is limited to objects and earthly situations. Understanding is “what we stand under,” and what we stand under, for most people keeps changing. The languages of this world and the words we use in them were developed here on Earth to describe and express 3-dimensional existence.

Spirit, in its natural state of formlessness is not 3-dimensional. It cannot be measured or boxed in concepts by the human mind or the words we use. Thoughts and ideas generate words and words are only symbols of how we feel or don’t feel. But words are not the things themselves, they are only 3-dimensional representations of our experiences. I arrive at these conclusions based on deductive reasoning of my own experiences. I am totally aware that I am using reasoning to undermine reasoning.

Words are very powerful, they are expressed vibrations, and can heal or hurt. Thought forms give energy to our words but speaking from a place of deep inner silence, with absolutely no thought, or ideas in your head, is even more profound. If I want to build something a blueprint can be helpful. But in spiritual growth the blueprint is unique to each individual and what they may have to unravel on their journey. What determines us, in my opinion, is an impetus coming from beyond words.

Yet, I do understand that words are the means of communication on social media. In my opinion they are a double-edged sword that cuts both ways; part of the duality of “physical human“ existence in a 3-dimensional domain. The human mind wants to frame everything but to outline the cosmos may be beyond the human mind. We are at the mercy of creation; there is no way that we cannot create, for better or worst human beings are constantly creating and trying to determine outcomes of their creations.

[FallingLeaves]

hi starman

The main thing I would disagree with would be the role of words... while yes words to most of us talk about 'thing's or 'activities' within the physicll reality, afaict there is at least one rich 'alternate' meaning to various basic words which denotes spiritual things.

the bible kinda hints that there is a strong symbiotic relationship between 3D (physical reality) and the spiritual world, for example 'as above so below' or 'what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven, what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven'.

For example to me the word 'water' has strong meanings beyond the physical entity we know about and drink... and other words have meanings too so if even you say something simple like 'dorothy poured a pail of water on the head of the wicked witch of the west, and the witch withered away and died' it is full of symbolic meaning well beyond the physical things/activities portrayed. And again the tao te ching (another book rich with alternate meanings) talks about various qualities of water in the physical world... in my mind a lot of such talk is a direct discourse on how the taoist version of the spiritual world works as well.

And even simple words like 'left' and 'right' have meanings well beyond their use to in telling directions if you ask me...
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I had to be a little schizophrenic to be able to see meaning where supposedly there is none, but, nonetheless by being schizophrenic I don't think I'm doing anything but being conscious about things that most people feel are supposed to remain in the unconscious part of reality.

Comes with a cost though, people *really* do not like me talking about things we all know aren't supposed to be talked about...

[Starman]

Falling Leaves, thank you for sharing a different perspective. I do believe that “variety definitely gives spice to life.” This is part of the paradox; variety enriches our perspective but at the same time, in my perspective, there is also a oneness of being. Lots of religions talk about the one and the many.

I do not feel that we all have to see it the same way; it is not a bifurcation, and either or situation, a bipolar mental state of this or that, dualistic as creation may be. Having said all of this, I agree, everything at its root is spiritual. Physical is spirit vibrating in a seemingly denser way. Words definitely have spiritual power.

In the Hebrew Kabbalah there is a whole section on “Words of Power.” Some words are more potent than others when said the right way. But in my opinion common usage of language often do not go to the depths of spiritual potency. The Christian Bible begins with, “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God.” I respect this saying.

Lots of yogis embrace that the Word of God is absolute silence, some embrace the mantra “Om” as the primordial vibration. Christians, Muslims, and other religions consider their “Holy” book to be the Word of God.” The issue as I see it is not in words, rather it is in how we interpret and use words. Language is a very dynamic thing which can change, thrive, or die. There are dead languages in this world which are not spoken anymore.

Various cultures of incoming generations have frequently changed the meaning of words, to where a person acting “bad” actually means “good.“ It is common knowledge in scientific and in spiritual communities, especially in metaphysics, that sound is vibration. They are one and the same thing. Spiritually one might say that everything is vibration. But like I said, I respect variety and non-violent differences. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to ramble.

Another part of this discussion would mention psycholinguistics or how language comes alive for us and takes on a meaning beyond its original definition. Basically the evolution of words and language.

Peace

[FallingLeaves]

i find myself agreeing with a lot of what you say, it is mostly stuff I believe too... i especially liked your observation that 'physical is spirit vibrating in a denser way'. You've effectively demolished the demarcation between physical and spiritual in your thinking and made them one and the same thing... that is something I started being agreeable to a long time ago.

I also think there is a oneness, but in my mind there is also a way to be separate if one wants to experience that. It isn't clear to me whether either way is inherently 'better' than the other although personally as I start to accept 'separate' as a way to express my own unique beingness I am sometimes grateful for the opportunity.

anyway the real reason i am answering is you said something to the effect that 'words in common usage aren't taken that way'. YES I find that a wonderful hair to split! But my own personal take on that is I don't HAVE to be adhering to the common usage of words (by humans) just because other (humans) are wanting to do that... and personally I think if I don't agree with that it leads to a kind of 'communication' I can open up with spiritual guides and such that wouldn't be possible if I were trying to get into agreement with others about what the meaning must be.

On the other hand that has its own problems and I realize it probably isn't for everyone, and in the end I think that what someone finds 'good enough' is indeed 'good enough'. I'm only just glad you gave me this opportunity to share something that is 'real' in my own life if nowhere else lol!

(just sharing)

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

Any more i think the same, there are many ways and it is more authentic to understand that and relate more openly to what is in front of you than to choose one 'perfect' way to always relate regardless of what is happening around you.

[/quote]

I think the whole opening in self to meet things as they are, is to suspend all knowing and just be present. Of course presence is not something numbed down or detached for me, it’s from doing the work in myself to achieve that place. It’s open and grounded as best I can be moment to moment.

Reality is a big fat jigsaw puzzle that we meet each and every day. Little increments of the whole. In saying that, there is an understanding at the core of each of us, that knows the way of things, that can understand the deeper mechanisms of reality and how that plays out and where our responsibilities lay in all that. The spiritual life/journey has opened me to see such things. Also too, add a little mystery as the unknown into the equation, we really can’t know it all, this is true. Living with the mystery means I can live with mine in me and I’m ok not knowing when it’s necessary. ;)



Opening to everything, is basically opening to everything within. so when I’m open that deep, meeting life, I can’t stop what flows in from outside unless I make a conscious choice to take myself out of the picture entirely.


That’s the potential but not everyone will be able to comprehend that kind of state.

I can hear them say..

‘You want me to feel everything I feel?” -

No I don’t but I prefer to honour feelings deeply, because I know they are an instrument to build potential. So I honour all of me.

Slowing down is part of learning to access things you might miss. The mind likes to plan and achieve, my feelings and body sensations are what bring me back to the moment. My presence with myself.