Gospel of Thomas

[sky]

Originally Posted by django

I believe you were dismissing my perspective when you said "I gave you an interpretation, if you read it you will understand it doesn't mean NOT to do these things."

As though your interpretation (which was an unacknowledged quote anyway unless you are Jean-Yves Leloup), was the only correct interpretation. What happened to "to each their own" there?

To each their own.... Everyone has their own beliefs and preferences. You obviously don't agree with the Gospel of Thomas, and don't understand it and that's ok, no problem but as I said before don't discredit it.

There are many interpretations online /in books to show how others interpret the Logions, as with the bible, you either read them or you ignore them. If after reading these various interpretations they resonate with you then you use them or leave them behind for others.

I have found amazing Teachings in Gnosticism like others have, and I believe it is formed on the Teachings of Jesus, you don't and thats your preference, some Christians take the bible as the words of God others believe it's words about God ( as I do) and that is not a problem for me, to each their own.

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by django

'


GoT verse 14: Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will acquire a sin, and if you pray you will be condemned, and if you give alms, it is evil that you will do unto your spirits. And when you go into any land and travel in the country places, when they receive you eat whatever they serve to you. Heal those among them who are sick. For, nothing that enters your mouth will defile you (plur.). Rather, it is precisely what comes out of your mouth that will defile you."

Django - a certain type of Jesus saying is the 'shocking saying' that is at odds with the expected. Its not meant to be taken completely literally
Its basically saying beware of external forms of piety and concentrate on the internal aspect.
There is also the aspect that Jesus did not NEED to pray because of his constant state of being with the Father and unity with the Spirit -- which is a permanent prayer if you like.... all interesting to add into the mix

The GoT isn't the full picture on its own as it lacks the teaching on Grace and Love that Jesus also taught but only hinted at in the sayings, but are found in the early church that are essential too

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by django

'


GoT verse 14: Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will acquire a sin, and if you pray you will be condemned, and if you give alms, it is evil that you will do unto your spirits. And when you go into any land and travel in the country places, when they receive you eat whatever they serve to you. Heal those among them who are sick. For, nothing that enters your mouth will defile you (plur.). Rather, it is precisely what comes out of your mouth that will defile you."

Django - a certain type of Jesus saying is the 'shocking saying' that is at odds with the expected. Its not meant to be taken completely literally
Its basically saying beware of external forms of piety and concentrate on the internal aspect.
There is also the aspect that Jesus did not NEED to pray because of his constant state of being with the Father and unity with the Spirit -- which is a permanent prayer if you like.... all interesting to add into the mix

The GoT isn't the full picture on its own as it lacks the teaching on Grace and Love that Jesus also taught but only hinted at in the sayings, but are found in the early church that are essential too

[django]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

Django - a certain type of Jesus saying is the 'shocking saying' that is at odds with the expected. Its not meant to be taken completely literally
Its basically saying beware of external forms of piety and concentrate on the internal aspect.
There is also the aspect that Jesus did not NEED to pray because of his constant state of being with the Father and unity with the Spirit -- which is a permanent prayer if you like.... all interesting to add into the mix

The GoT isn't the full picture on its own as it lacks the teaching on Grace and Love that Jesus also taught but only hinted at in the sayings, but are found in the early church that are essential too

And yet Jesus did pray..."Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed” (Mark 1:35)

“But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed” (Luke 5:16).

“Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name-the name you gave me-so that they may be one as we are one” (John 17:11).

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you” (John 17:20-21).

“Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will’” (Matthew 26:39).

“And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground” (Luke 22:44).


He also said "This is how you pray" to his followers, there is no time in the entire NT that he suggests otherwise.

The GoT has some partially authentic material, but most has been b*stardised by gnostic addition, and some is original gnostic ideas that stand alone without the need to be based on an existing Jesus saying.

The problem seems to be that 'normal' people are now convinced that the GoT is legitimate, but even cursory objective research should be enough to convince anyone who cares to look into it that the GoT is dated by the majority of scholars to 200CE give or take, and this is established by scholarly and reputable methods.

The gnostic Jesus is incompatible with the biblical version of Jesus, it's not a missing piece of the picture, it is pure gnostic interpolation which unfortunately can fool either non-critical thinkers, or those with innate gnostic tendencies.

[sky]

Originally Posted by django

And yet Jesus did pray..."Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed” (Mark 1:35)

“But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed” (Luke 5:16).

“Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name-the name you gave me-so that they may be one as we are one” (John 17:11).

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you” (John 17:20-21).

“Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will’” (Matthew 26:39).

“And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground” (Luke 22:44).


He also said "This is how you pray" to his followers, there is no time in the entire NT that he suggests otherwise.

The GoT has some partially authentic material, but most has been b*stardised by gnostic addition, and some is original gnostic ideas that stand alone without the need to be based on an existing Jesus saying.

The problem seems to be that 'normal' people are now convinced that the GoT is legitimate, but even cursory objective research should be enough to convince anyone who cares to look into it that the GoT is dated by the majority of scholars to 200CE give or take, and this is established by scholarly and reputable methods.

The gnostic Jesus is incompatible with the biblical version of Jesus, it's not a missing piece of the picture, it is pure gnostic interpolation which unfortunately can fool either non-critical thinkers, or those with innate gnostic tendencies.

These ' normal ' people you mention who are convinced that the Gospel of Thomas is legitimate are exactly the same as those who are convinced the bible is legitimate, it all comes from the mind.

Those who you think are fooled by the Gospel of Thomas are also the same as those who are fooled by the bible as the mind is involved again....

To each their own

[django]

The closer a text is to the event that it is recording the higher the chance that it is an eyewitness account. The GoT wasn't produced anywhere near the eyewitness account era, though it has used fragments of early works on which to spin its gnostic slant. Preferring an eyewitness account over a much later text makes a lot of sense to me, it's not a choice between two equally authoritative texts.

[davidmartin]

hmm its interesting to hear your view on this Django
Yes it is true Jesus prayed. What I see in the GoT isn't really a stark call not to pray but
to avoid the ritual of praying, then going back to being worldly, then praying again so I see
it as a challenge to that kind of 'religious' type of observance, and its uncomfortable as this is
obviously much harder to do
Thats how I read it any way
I will admit the form of a sayings compilation would make it easy to add extra ones but few sayings are really that gnostic maybe there are three or four that seem that way from memory
But seeing seeing a 'gnostic' Jesus and a 'biblical' Jesus I can sort of understand that but can't really see it in the GoT itself but in the conclusions drawn from it maybe, yes
Just don't see anything that can't be explained like the one about prayer seems explainable

As to the date I think 200 is about the latest it could possibly be because of the 3rd century manuscripts found. There's an early camp and a late camp among scholars and doubt there will ever be consensus on the date. That's the fairest assessment on the date without taking sides

its all about the search for Jesus

[django]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

hmm its interesting to hear your view on this Django
Yes it is true Jesus prayed. What I see in the GoT isn't really a stark call not to pray but
to avoid the ritual of praying, then going back to being worldly, then praying again so I see
it as a challenge to that kind of 'religious' type of observance, and its uncomfortable as this is
obviously much harder to do
Thats how I read it any way
I will admit the form of a sayings compilation would make it easy to add extra ones but few sayings are really that gnostic maybe there are three or four that seem that way from memory
But seeing seeing a 'gnostic' Jesus and a 'biblical' Jesus I can sort of understand that but can't really see it in the GoT itself but in the conclusions drawn from it maybe, yes
Just don't see anything that can't be explained like the one about prayer seems explainable

As to the date I think 200 is about the latest it could possibly be because of the 3rd century manuscripts found. There's an early camp and a late camp among scholars and doubt there will ever be consensus on the date. That's the fairest assessment on the date without taking sides

its all about the search for Jesus

Jesus very clearly stated his attitude regarding religious type observance in Matthew 6:

1 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him...."
16 "When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (Matthew 6:1-8, 16-18)

This seems to be what you think the GoT is saying also.

But why do you think the GoT is saying this, when it says in black and white "Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will acquire a sin, and if you pray you will be condemned, and if you give alms, it is evil that you will do unto your spirits." In the GoT He doesn't suggest doing anything in a different way, he just associates these activities with sin, with being condemned, and with doing evil to yourself. What exactly prompts you to read anything further into these sentences? Do you think Jesus suddenly requires the reader/listener to think cryptically, and risk getting it wrong if they go for a literal interpretation, when he speaks very plainly in the NT? No one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket or in a cellar...

[sky]

' If we feel righteous when we fast, it will inflate our ego instead of freeing us. The true fast comes spontaneously, when we are absorbed in the presence of God. Then we forget about eating. This was Yeshua's state when the disciples found that he had not eaten and were surprised. He told them: 'I have something to eat, a food that you do not know ... My food is doing the will of my Father ... Do not work for perishable food, but for the food of eternal life.' (Cf. John 4:32.)

If we feel righteous when you give to charity, you do harm to your mind. You are giving to gain approval or to create a clear conscience. But we must go further than this, so that you do 'not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.'

If your brother is hungry and you have some food, what is more natural than sharing it? This is not 'giving to charity'; it is rediscovering the spontaneity of love.

The same applies to prayer: 's long as you pray while seeing yourself as praying, you are truly not praying,' said Jean Cassien. Prayer must also become more and more spontaneous—a simple movement of the heart, so that it becomes like the perfume of the rose or song of a bird.

Yeshua is warning us against practices that are good in themselves, but that can become a hook for 'phariseeism,' or spiritual narcissism. We must allow the Presence of the Spirit to make us more and more simple, more and more spontaneous. A religion that produces complex people who feel guilty and make others feel guilty is at great risk of being a false religion. It no longer 're-links' (the original meaning of re-ligion) us with the vitality of the Living One; it instead separates us from it.

This logion encourages us in this attitude of simplicity. When we are offered hospitality, we must eat what is before us. It is not what goes into our mouth that defiles us, but what comes out of it. In general, Yeshua emphasizes that what makes us impure, what defile us, are our acts that defile others, such as useless remarks and hasty judgments. It is calumny and blame that corrupts our hearts and minds and makes our breath nauseating. What good is it to fast, give alms, and pray, if the heart is not fully engaged in these acts, if the mind harbors hate or bitterness? '




It's not the ' Action ' that Jesus is talking about rather the ' Intent '.....

[Native spirit]

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion please keep this post respectable or they will be deleted.


Namaste