If you want to understand the dream analogy...

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 9 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

An interesting experiment would be examining experience upon waking in the night

I recently attended a free webinar by Robert Waggoner on lucid dreaming. During his lecture, he talked about monitoring the brain as well as eye movement of lucid dreamers during their sleep. The subjects were told to move their eyes repeatedly back and forth when they realized that they were in a lucid dream. The record of eye movements and brain activity was very interesting.

Waggoner showed what the brain looks like in "normal" waking state and in the "normal" dream state. During the lucid dream, the brain looks like a combination of both. It is very evident and repeatable.

Here's a link to his web site though I haven't perused it to any detail. It might contain some of the info to which you are alluding.

https://www.lucidadvice.com/about-robert/

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I'm not sure if it was an omission regarding "meditation has a direct continuity of awareness across, waking, deep meditation, and waking" ... but meditation ALSO has a direct continuity across deep sleep, dream formation, and the so-called waking state as well.

It was an intentional omission as I wanted to examine it from a very short and controlled span of time from waking to meditative to waking. That very same "knowing" pervades and illumines all states of mind. That's the interesting part of the examination.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

The subjects were told to move their eyes repeatedly back and forth when they realized that they were in a lucid dream. The record of eye movements and brain activity was very interesting.

Yup, here's another one. https://www.lucid.news/researchers-c...y-psychedelic/

Several methods were used to communicate with the dreamers, including flashing lights, spoken words, beeping tones, and tactile stimuli. The participants were then able to respond through eye movements and facial muscle contractions.

When I was toying with lucid dreaming I bought a REMDreamerPro. It's like a sleep mask that goes over the eyes and there's a circuit card in it that tracks eye movement and when it detects REM it flashes red LEDs. It never quite got me totally lucid however I would notice flashing lights. Streetlights, car lights, house lights, whatever, and the dream would become a lot more detailed and solidified. Probably just on the verge of lucidity. Pretty cool device. What I needed to do was practice throughout the day looking for anything that flashes and when noticed take some time and do a reality check (Am I dreaming? Try to push thumb through palm). But I was devoting most of my practice to the MILD technique.

[mary isaak]

Thank you very much JustASimpleGuy, makes a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Advaita posits that's the very same "knowing" pervading/illumining all three states of mind - waking, dreaming and deep sleep. The "knowing" without which there would be no knowing.

Sorry, I am very new to advaita, so my understanding is very limited.
I have no taste of awareness with no objects. Deep sleep for me is like a gap of awareness. I know that I was in deep sleep, because I remember going to bed and then I am aware when I am waking up but nothing in between
I also had the experience of being too tired during a meeting, my colleagues told me that I was sleeping for few minutes, but I was completely unconscious of that.

Could be that my understanding of "knowing or awareness" is not correct, or maybe I should practice mindfulness...

Thanks!

Originally Posted by mary isaak

Could be that my understanding of "knowing or awareness" is not correct, or maybe I should practice mindfulness...

I think you're conflating mind with awareness. If there are no objects there is no mind either because mind is also an object. Mind isn't cognizant of deep sleep because it isn't present. On the other hand Awareness is aware of both presence and absence of mind and when mind comes back online it's illumined by that same Awareness.

Advaita will say the "knowing" one was sleeping is by virtue of That illumining awareness that is ever-present. What I presented with waking-meditative-waking seems a more obvious example because it's a controlled and contiguous "experiment" over a short span of time. There's no question in my mind that I don't fall to sleep and yet there's a gap between waking & waking that, from a waking experiential perspective, seems instantaneous and then there's what the clock tells me, all the while "knowing" awareness was contiguous.

In the end and at the heart of Advaita it's not that you're aware. It's that you are Awareness itself.

Should you practice meditation? Depends whether this is a casual interest or something more. If it's something more I'd say meditation is a prerequisite. Then the choice is which system of meditation and there are many. Advaita tradition incorporates Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. I prefer mindfulness and effortless.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

It was an intentional omission as I wanted to examine it from a very short and controlled span of time from waking to meditative to waking. That very same "knowing" pervades and illumines all states of mind. That's the interesting part of the examination.

Actually, all of the transitions, including the one that you mentioned, are worth examining. Some transitions, as in your case, are more compelling than others based on one's individual perspective.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 15 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

... mind is also an object. Mind isn't cognizant of deep sleep because it isn't present. On the other hand Awareness is aware of both presence and absence of mind and when mind comes back online it's illumined by that same Awareness.

... there's a gap between waking & waking that, from a waking experiential perspective, seems instantaneous and then there's what the clock tells me, all the while "knowing" awareness was contiguous.

Ramana Maharshi may have over-simplified matters when he stated that "mind is a bundle of thoughts". In any case, it is indeed consistent with your statement that "mind is an object". As you also stated, "awareness is aware of both presence and absence of mind". We are in agreement on those points.

When one practices conscious sleep, however, there is NOT "a gap between waking & waking" since one remains aware in the deep sleep state as well as during dream formation and one can watch the transitions taking place between all three states (deep sleep, dream formation, "waking" state). One can thus remain aware within what you call the "gap between waking & waking" .... and one can confirm that the "awareness was contiguous" as mentioned in your excellent post.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

When one practices conscious sleep, however, there is NOT "a gap between waking & waking" since one remains aware in the deep sleep state as well as during dream formation and one can watch the transitions taking place between all three states (deep sleep, dream formation, "waking" state).

That's pretty much what several very expert lucid dreamers at dreamviews say, and that is usually while practicing the WILD technique. The body laying on the bed falls to sleep but not the mind. When they awake they have recall of the entire flow.

I wonder if the same mechanism of mind that allows waking lucidity in REM sleep also allows it in dreamless sleep?

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 18 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I wonder if the same mechanism of mind that allows waking lucidity in REM sleep also allows it in dreamless sleep?

It is my understanding that this is indeed the case though it might be difficult to differentiate between dreamless state and a thought-free state.

Good point.

[alanantic]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 18 EXCERPT: It is my understanding that this is indeed the case though it might be difficult to differentiate between dreamless state and a thought-free state.
Good point.

I think the difference between the dreamless sleep state and the forth "state" (turiya?) is the the body/mind is asleep but the Self is awake.

One thing that isn't talked about when it comes being lucid in normal dreaming is the newfound freedom. As soon as one becomes aware of being the dreamer of your dream character, suddenly you might decide to fly or fondle a beautiful woman...just for instance (hey, I was young, once). The Dream Analogy for non-dual consciousness extends that lucidity into the waking state.

"Tell them I am awake." -- Buddha

Our mortal character's personal sense of self (ego) shifts to the Self of All/immortal soul/that which incarnates, Suddenly the mortal will drops away and is replace by a higher(?) will. It may be more like that Twilight Zone episode where Cliff Robertson is a puppeteer and his puppet starts to "talk" to him. The relationship is rather schizophrenic. It does make sense to shift to that higher perspective. We really don't want our mortal character's will in charge, do we? Our "immortal" aspect, blissfully asleep, has tremendous potential. Once lucid in the waking dream, the mortal things & dramas lose their importance and are simply seen as props used to build our true character; the One Character.

Now that may be a speculative rant, but I'm just trying to bring the ends together... :-P