A Little About Science and Spirituality

There is no God per se. What exists is a benevolent creative force composed of an assemblage of great spiritual beings. These are in no way human. They are far above such beginning stages of existence. What do they do? They express livingness. What we know as "creation" is one result of their activity. It was they who, using their great collective minds, caused what we have come to know as the Big Bang. They are so very high that it is quite impossible for we humans to know of them in any literal sense. But.... they are not far away. Their bodily form permeates virtually everything that there is. Can we move towards a satisfactory description of them? Yes. Everything in existence no matter the plane results from and is imbued with this, their signature. This is known by us as "consciousness". It is not a result of anything but a principle unto itself. We are conscious. Our entire planet and even a subatomic particle is conscious. All life is aware in this sense but to varying degrees. Our universe did not come from nothingness. Such a thing is both illogical and impossible. High spiritual planes do exist and it is from these that "matter" is changed down (think electrical transformer) into lower plane matter. What we know as ordinary psychic sensitivity is, at present, the best indicator of the veracity of the claims put forth in this statement. Through the agency of mind (creative force) spiritual matter slows and becomes physical matter. It is these high planes which gave birth, then, to our physical universe(s). And it is the continuing efforts of the great creative force that is responsible for the evolutionary forces that are so very apparent.

Is God a human or some super human being? No. Is Jesus the Son of God in a literal sense? No. Any scientist will say that there is a reason, a source for every observable thing. One cannot both believe this and yet try to claim that our universe spontaneously appeared without reason and from nothing. "Nothing" is an interesting idea but is one which is quite impossible. This sort of magic is not possible. It only seems so because science has not yet been able to properly quantify the existence of all of the spiritual planes of existence. They will some day. Until science succeeds in this spirituality will remain the domain of religion and mystics. Our friends who we see zipping around in faster than light ships know all this well enough. They can travel much, much faster than light, not because of worm holes, but because they have developed the ability to "change up" to a slightly higher (from physical to low spiritual) plane wherein Newtonian physics do not apply.

See? It is all so simple and elegant. At present we have religion and science opposed to each other. Science takes us back in time to the point of creation. Religion takes us further back and tentatively identifies the source. The trouble is that the religious folks default position is one which is nonsensical. In the future science will join with religion and both a new science and a greatly improved religion will be born. This will never be so long as humanity tends to use new technology in military (selfish) application. While we continue to do this we are not ready. The doors to further understanding will remain closed.

Note: Despite my opening statement there are singular entities who are far above we humans in evolution. Many of these assume bodies of expression which are to us, planets. This means that a planet which is one of "sacred" nature necessarily is the more or less corporeal construct of a being who, to those within it's domain, would be a "god". So.... are there gods? Yes and no all at the same time. Our sun is one such sacred globe. Another in our system is Saturn. Each has a central spiritual, creative center which both sends forth and draws back to it's mass those spiritual manifestations which appear to us in our system. The sun creates. The sun recycles. That is it's function both esoterically and exoterically. Hint: Our traditions of The Son of God are probably based on early innate knowledge of the Sun of God. Think now in terms of the Sun gods of the ancients and discover that they might have known more than we give them credit for.

And here we sit wondering where it all will end.....

[rijhumal]

Thanks bartholomew for you views and observation for corelation between science and spirituality.at this point we have no ideas to interprete and further taking part in this discussion

Originally Posted by rijhumal

Thanks bartholomew for you views and observation for corelation between science and spirituality.at this point we have no ideas to interprete and further taking part in this discussion

It is poorly written and wide of the mark. I was unable to convey in words what I sensed in ideas. It is always this way I think. Language is too limiting.

[muffin]

Originally Posted by bartholomew

It is poorly written and wide of the mark. I was unable to convey in words what I sensed in ideas. It is always this way I think. Language is too limiting.

Good afternoon bartholomew

Don't sell yourself short

[Busby]

Originally Posted by bartholomew

It is poorly written and wide of the mark. I was unable to convey in words what I sensed in ideas. It is always this way I think. Language is too limiting.

No, bartholomew, it isn't wide of the mark. It makes a change to read something from someone who has obviously sat himself down to think about things instead of accepting a mass of inane concepts written down somewhere in the middle of a desert.

Originally Posted by Busby

No, bartholomew, it isn't wide of the mark. It makes a change to read something from someone who has obviously sat himself down to think about things instead of accepting a mass of inane concepts written down somewhere in the middle of a desert.

Much of what I post is channeled material coming from Bartholomew. This thread is one such. I wish I knew even a small part of what he has learned.

A pleasure to meet someone who is older than I. ha ha.... 'Bout time.

James/Bartholomew

[7luminaries]

Bartholomew (Bart for short )...hello there!
I agree with the core truth of what you've shared, that those we know as transcendentals are essentially responsible for stewarding and shepherding all of physical existence, and ultimately assisting and overseeing our our spiritual journeys, as well. I also agree they are not far, never far, and always close at hand. I would also state that consciousness, like politics, is ultimately always local (meaning, direct communion, illuminated exchange, and thus yes even what we apprehend as mental and emotional "communication", is possible).

I also agree the concept of something from nothing is not always helpful, as in some sense what is, is, and has always simply been.

I think the idea of a starting point (say for this oarticular iteration of the physical universe) can be helpful for folks to get started in exploring what is and who they are, at centre. However, grasping that any particular physical expression of any kind (including the cosmos) has a finite start and end, whilst consciousness itself has none, is challenging for many.

This is basically where science stops at present (though quantum physics is challenging the existing perceptions of what is), since where to go to measure and quantify prior to the Big Bang? That's where many are, conceptually, as well, when perception is more limited or based on the physical world and classical physics and similar. Quantum physics theoretically allows for matter to arise or to randomly come into our physical existence (from ??? is not definitively known), but again, that ultimately may be limiting if folks seek to apply a direct correlation to "original" or Source consciousness. (BTW, I truly love exploring and discussing what I apprehend of science and particularly quantum physics and its contribution to our worldview, and I'm sure many fascinating discoveries still await.)

However, not even those transcendentals could (or would) explain the most fundamental questions, such as, why do you or I exist (as individuated consciousness, or being)? And why do you exist as you are, and not as a wholly or fundamentally different individuated expression of consciousness? Or, why is it your being (as consciousness) came into existence &/or exists "near to" or alongside those others most closely proximate to you (or, most closely "related")?

They too have no "answer" for these aside from the truth, that they do not know other than it is what is, and only Source knows "why" you are as you are and why you came into being as you are. Our consciousness was not created by those who brought the physical universe into being. They too experience their own consciousness as a gift, no matter how advanced and/or eternal their state of being seems by comparison to our own.

As opposed to what is the meaning of life, say, for which either you or they could all offer and discuss many good and reasonable suggestions or proposals. These are -- or rather WE are -- what I call a few of the prime mysteries...prime, indivisible, and therefore unique, irreplaceable.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Bart hello there!
I agree consciousness exists independent of matter, that it is foundational and present in all, and that it always is and has been.

I don't premise any aspect of our individuated (yet fully connected and never separate) experience of consciousness and interbeing on any physical existence. So I agree with you on that as well. I also don't have any concept of consciousness as an effect of anything else, being that it is consciousness itself which is foundational. I also generally agree with and resonate with most of the rest of what you say. The bit about leadership, well, too true indeed

The experience of individuation or "birthing" of such is outside of time or space, being purely of consciousness and is more a human representation of awareness of (for lack of a better term) relative spiritual proximity in the larger tapestry or web. But yet there does seem to be an origination of the individuated consciousness relative to Unity, at least from our individuated perspective.

You also describe the origin of particularly human souls, and whilst this is not exactly what I speak of, I do understand that we cannot embody a human form unless everything that supports that has also come into being, then to fruition, and then is sustainable for an aeon or two.

As to why you are as you are (and not, say, as I am), etc., why your individuated aspect of Unity consciousness was "born" where you were, proximate to whomever you were, on the tapestry of consciousness...etc., well no one...whether human or transcendental...no one has these specific answers. Yes...I've asked them too hahaha !!!

As they say, it'd only be from God's lips to your ears (so to speak)...and we won't know till we know, except to say in this interim of eternity that it is what it is, and that it's all to the good.

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Bart hello there!
I agree consciousness exists independent of matter, that it is foundational and present in all, and that it always is and has been.

I don't premise any aspect of our individuated (yet fully connected and never separate) experience of consciousness and interbeing on any physical existence. So I agree with you on that as well. I also don't have any concept of consciousness as an effect of anything else, being that it is consciousness itself which is foundational. I also generally agree with and resonate with most of the rest of what you say. The bit about leadership, well, too true indeed

The experience of individuation or "birthing" of such is outside of time or space, being purely of consciousness and is more a human representation of awareness of (for lack of a better term) relative spiritual proximity in the larger tapestry or web. But yet there does seem to be an origination of the individuated consciousness relative to Unity, at least from our individuated perspective.

You also describe the origin of particularly human souls, and whilst this is not exactly what I speak of, I do understand that we cannot embody a human form unless everything that supports that has also come into being, then to fruition, and then is sustainable for an aeon or two.

As to why you are as you are (and not, say, as I am), etc., why your individuated aspect of Unity consciousness was "born" where you were, proximate to whomever you were, on the tapestry of consciousness...etc., well no one...whether human or transcendental...no one has these specific answers. Yes...I've asked them too hahaha !!!

As they say, it'd only be from God's lips to your ears (so to speak)...and we won't know till we know, except to say in this interim of eternity that it is what it is, and that it's all to the good.

Peace & blessings
7L

Bart hello there!
I agree consciousness exists independent of matter, that it is foundational and present in all, and that it always is and has been. My position is that all is present in consciousness

I don't premise any aspect of our individuated (yet fully connected and never separate) experience of consciousness and interbeing on any physical existence. So I agree with you on that as well. I also don't have any concept of consciousness as an effect of anything else, being that it is consciousness itself which is foundational. I also generally agree with and resonate with most of the rest of what you say. The bit about leadership, well, too true indeed

The experience of individuation or "birthing" of such is outside of time or space, being purely of consciousness and is more a human representation of awareness of (for lack of a better term) relative spiritual proximity in the larger tapestry or web. But yet there does seem to be an origination of the individuated consciousness relative to Unity, at least from our individuated perspective.Time and space. The later, space seems to describe the dominant aspect of our phenomenal universe. The prior, time, is more inclusive. We know that time results from dimension. ie: If there are two points with distance between them then to bridge the gap requires velocity. Time then becomes a consideration. But time is also present in much of the subtle worlds. Some have reported that time "flows" more slowly the higher we rise in spirit. Kind of like the speed of sound in our atmosphere slowing as we find thinner airs. On each of the planes there is matter. Not physical matter but matter composed of the stuff of each plane. ie: on the mental plane there is mental matter. When we are functional on the mental, for instance, we note that it seems substantive to us. And... we find that our existence is easily organized in terms of "before and after". So there is time on the mental. But how does this compare to time on Earth? Remembering the variations of the speed of sound and applying this through use of the law of correspondence we find that speed on the mental is slower than it is here on Earth. Indeed on one subplane of the mental it has been measured as being less than three quarters as fast. The same is true as we ascend. Like in our Earthly atmosphere we find that as we rise the matter of each plane is thinner, less substantive (relative ideas). So... time continues slowing. Finally at a certain point time stops. Here is the correspondence to the Newtonian speed limit said to exist in physical space. Time stops! Time no longer exists. In religion we often hear about how the way "God is". Jesus is said to have declared "before Abraham was, I am". This "I am" indicates functionality on such a high plane that all is in the present. Here also is the reason we can have freedom of choice yet God (term of convenience only) seems to know in advance how we will choose. Human souls are birthed on a certain level of the mental plane. Here there is time almost as we know it and there is also space but this is a little differently perceived.

When I say that consciousness is a principle it is because I am otherwise at a loss to define it in a better way. No matter how smart a man is there are always limits to his ability to know things. And.... we humans are restricted by our levels of consciousness too. If we raise ourselves through wisdom we can understand more but so long as we have to live in these bodies on a solid planet we have to settle for "not quite".

You also describe the origin of particularly human souls, and whilst this is not exactly what I speak of, I do understand that we cannot embody a human form unless everything that supports that has also come into being, then to fruition, and then is sustainable for an aeon or two.

As to why you are as you are (and not, say, as I am), etc., why your individuated aspect of Unity consciousness was "born" where you were, proximate to whomever you were, on the tapestry of consciousness...etc., well no one...whether human or transcendental...no one has these specific answers. Yes...I've asked them too hahaha !!! Here I believe we can go further and understand more by considering the combinations of our personalities and our soul aspects. Two men will agree yet disagree because they are not the same person with the same vantage points. (this opinion disregards the possibility of purposeful deceit). When a man is born he takes that first breath of air. But wait. There is more to this event. We also have ethereal bodies. These too respire just like the physical throughout our lives. So when we take the first breath into our physical a first breath is also taken into our ethereal bodies. This serves to condition the body by establishing a baseline of potential attributes which remains for the rest of the life. Here we find that we are speaking of astrology. Human personality attributes come from various distribution points found near and far. Constellations of stars provide some. Secondarily our own sun and planets provide others. This is a concern of vast esoteric import. Far too heavy duty for a quickie statement. Suffice to say that these two channels that open at birth are the physical and the subtle (spiritual). The personality is then a product of physical environment and experience but also of spiritual conditioning. All because of what happened at the moment of birth. This is the largely unknown reason astrologers who do natal charts want to know the time and place of birth. It's all real.

I spoke of the journey of the human soul because it seemed to be a necessary part of the "why" question that so many entertain. I have studied much in this area. And Bart is a source and guide to me who sometimes refuses to shut up. ha ha....

As they say, it'd only be from God's lips to your ears (so to speak)...and we won't know till we know, except to say in this interim of eternity that it is what it is, and that it's all to the good. I'm only a few years from my own return to the "heavenly fields". I intend to make full use of the opportunities that are then presented.

Good discussion. Thanks..

When you say "transcendental" do you refer to the post human paths of experience or do you mean something else?

Peace & blessings

[Busby]

You may well remember the moment when, as a child, you put the question 'Why am I here?' and mum or dad gave some sort of nonsense answer because of course the solution to such a question lies in realms of which we have no idea. Any possible answer lies somewhere else, unknown. Or you, as a mum or dad were completely unable to even think of a possible reply. So it has always amazed me how quickly we adapt to life. Some of us are so quickly or easily adapted that we don't mind putting our life at risk - for hobbies, dangerous activities, wars and so on. It's almost as if we know that it doesn't matter soooo much. Maybe deep down we know things that we could not yet comprehend. We cannot imagine being in a non-conscious condition. It could possibly be that some of us even know it.

Personally I have difficulty with the idea that we are here to learn, improve ourselves, grow, or even have to believe in something. In my opinion (and this has taken decades to be at true for me at least) we exist in this world as we are. That is we exist as mind and matter. There is no need for anything else. These 'spiritual beings' who sort of guide us, create us and cause us to come into existence (as results of cosmic actions) are, or would be, recognisable (perhaps) as swathes or coils of energy, the sort of clouds of light and energy we see when we look out far into the universe.

This picture easily represents the energy forms given names in the Hindu tradition. Each of them having a goal, each goal set by the natural tendency of atoms wanting to take their place in the scheme of things. In Greek philosophy atoms were understood to be in the form of grains, each of them jostling for a place just as a bird or a fish jostles in the swarm or shoal.

Quantum philosophy seems to show that atoms are aware of themselves and it follows that the whole of creation has some sort of awareness, no matter how stumpf (as we understand it) it may seem to be.

For me this is all in the mind. I don't mean that it is all an illusion, but something - the slowing down of time, the slowing of light, the curvature of space creates reality within a great and universal mind in which we humans have reached a point where we too are slowly becoming aware of our place in the newly discovered and utterly mind-blowing suggestion that there are at least two trillion galaxies in the known universe.

The reason we are here is that this universal intelligence which or who isn't interested in whether you eat pork or are circumcised has only one target, one without end - to experience in one way or another everything that can possibly be experienced.

Fantastic.