Going Down The Rabbit Hole.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by mattie

That ‘toward God’ or ‘toward inner self’ are opposing paths is a completely ➽➽➽ SUBJECTIVE BELIEF ↵↵↵, not a TRUTH. It can be a personal TRUTH, but this DOES NOT make it a FACT for anyone else.

Many don’t see these as separate at all. This need not be an either or situation. The duality of this is entirely voluntarily manufactured. It is somewhat ironic that by connecting deeply w/ self that we connect w/ what we call God (Source/Prime Creator/Universe) so it is understandable how these things could be perceived as being opposite. They aren’t. That is my & many others’ TRUTH. Others have the right to disagree, but this doesn’t impact this being a TRUTH for me.

This idea of our being EQUAL partners w/ what we call God & being fully respectful of self as just as honored of a part of the Universal ‘team’ of beings as the higher energetic beings such as angels or those in heaven (another subjective belief) is the basis of the New Spirituality, New Age beliefs, or post-organized religion spirituality. Some see this exploring of new beliefs as a fearful ‘dark unknown,’ while others find it to be a delightful discovery & exploration, finding seeing self in a loving, trusting, & honored manner to be the nourishing & satisfying.

▲▲▲ What is always so interesting is why organized religion is perturbed so much by others’ beliefs. ▲▲▲

Those who are energetically savvy in organized religion have long known that it was/is of the utmost importance to keep people from respecting self & connecting deeply within. This is why they preached the disinformation that we are inherently flawed sinners (subjective belief) for centuries. It is impossible to attain any real level of spiritual advancement if one considers one’s self as inherently flawed. They know when people make this deep spiritual connection w/ self that they are very close to REestablishing their own innate spiritual connection, & this usually leads to their walking away from organized religion as their beliefs are no longer consistent w/ having to hear continually how we are sooooo inherently flawed. READ: STOP TITHING & supporting the religious bureaucracy.

As long as organized religion stays invested in the ‘born sinner’ concept they will have this inherent problem w/ retaining members after they make this spiritual connection. Their issue to cope w/ though.



While this is phrased politely it plainly states that other who have varying beliefs aren’t competence to CHOOSE their OWN BELIEFS. That their differing belief is a ‘personal lie.’ Gobsmacking intolerance. (& they wonder who people are fleeing organized religion in droves!!! LOL)

Because some don’t agree w/ others they disrespectfully turn others’ chosen belief, their TRUTH into a ‘personal lie.’ This is the rigid intolerance that some religions sooooo openly display about varying beliefs. There is an utter unwillingness to give others the same respect that they ASSUME, yea DEMAND that is accorded to their beliefs. Therefore, others TRUTH is turned into their lie. What Brass!!! It presumes quite wrongly that others don’t have the ability to determine what is an appropriate belief for them. By saying that others’ differing beliefs are not TRUTH, but their ➨➨➨ ‘personal lie’ ↵↵↵ is calling them spiritually incompetent. This is the same autocratic drum beat organized religion has always had.

What we see as the TRUTH when discussing spiritual issues is called a ‘personal truth’ unless we are claiming the omniscience to speak for all others. This is not possible as others have varying beliefs. It can even be a group TRUTH for those who share the same beliefs, but this is still a subjective belief of a specific group. This, no matter how large the group may be or how dominate it is in the religious/spiritual make up of its region still DOES NOT make it a universal truth.

Some religions insist that their BELIEFs are the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. This absolutism is theologically problematic for many reasons. It is their right to believe this if they want, but many others don’t. In areas (both eastern & western) where these absolutist autocratic religions that insist their beliefs are the ONLY TRUTH dominate, those who are in the majority religion often try to make others who have different beliefs feel as if they are being offensive when they state their beliefs. This is a routine bullying tactic, should be recognized as such, & openly discussed when this absurd tactic is employed. It worked well for centuries, but many are now not willing to buy that they should be apologetic for having differing beliefs.

Organized religions & their proponents often CLAIM that they are OK w/ others having differing beliefs, but until they acknowledge that their relIgion’s TRUTHs are actually subjective BELIEFs they are just using a time honored slippery tactic trying to distract others from their insisting that their BELIEF is the real one that should dominate.

All it means is that all the beliefs everyone has are only devises to comfort them, and anyone who cares to examine them can find them completely unfounded.

If we were truthful we would admit to ourselves that although we are tollerant of other's beliefs, we don't respect them at all unless they conform to our own. It is true to say we respect the personhood itself beyond the belief.

The term 'personal truth' is absurd isn't it? Examine any belief, where it started, and you find these were adopted at some stage, and there is nothing that validates them at all.

All that stuff. 'Inherantly flawed' is just told to us. That's all is. So one might go on to see some faith healing or something the in retrospect go 'that proves Christ is the saviour, I am inherantly flawed, I'm judged by God etc etc etc. amen.

Just an example. Investigate any belief at all and you find one is always always looking for some way to validate it, because it can't be validated, and deep inside everyone knows that.

[NightSpirit]

hmmm...i dont believe that Gem. I can say 'someone' loves me and know this for a fact. It doesn't need validating.

Originally Posted by Gem

All it means is that all the beliefs everyone has are only devises to comfort them, and anyone who cares to examine them can find them completely unfounded.

One can consider their own beliefs completely unfounded or “a ruse, a ‘personal lie’ if one chooses or as a device to comfort, coddle, tempt or distract them, but it is entirely presumptive to think that this is how others look at their own beliefs, formulate them, or use their beliefs. Others can have beliefs because this is simply how they see things.

Originally Posted by Gem

If we were truthful we would admit to ourselves that although we are tollerant of other's beliefs, we don't respect them at all unless they conform to our own. It is true to say we respect the personhood itself beyond the belief.

This implies that others don’t or can’t respect beliefs that are not their own. This may be true for some, but certainly isn’t true for all. It isn’t as much respecting the person who has the belief, but respecting the RIGHT of the person to have the belief. This is the flip side of our expecting for others to grant us the RIGHT to have whatever beliefs we want.

Originally Posted by Gem

The term 'personal truth' is absurd isn't it? Examine any belief, where it started, and you find these were adopted at some stage, and there is nothing that validates them at all.

This seems to say that a belief isn’t valid because we adopted it at some stage. This would invalidate all learning. That it is a ‘personal truth’ doesn’t mean it has to be one that birthed originally w/ us, just a belief that we consider to be the truth.

Originally Posted by Gem

... 'Inherantly flawed' is just told to us. That's all is. ...

Our being inherently flawed is one of the cornerstones of religions that are based on our being sinners. For those who believe in these religions literally it is often a truth to them.

Originally Posted by Gem

Just an example. Investigate any belief at all and you find one is always always looking for some way to validate it, because it can't be validated, and deep inside everyone knows that.

This is presuming that others also aren’t comfortable w/ their beliefs, always questioning them. Not necessarily the case. Being open to allowing for beliefs to change & evolve or grow is different than never considering a belief real because it can’t be validated sufficiently for our own specific criteria, but to each their own in how we process these things.

I think, id have to agree with gem.

Although, its changing, and extremely fast, but as far as I can see lots of people dont want to be told the truth. They dont want to hear it becasue 90% of the time it totaly destroys their POV. Alot of religions are just sheep herding institutions who are only doing it for power.

How do I know that? Well, look at the bible. Jesus was poor, so were all of his deciples. Theres no texts in the bible saying they went around collecting money to get their minesty up and running, nothing stating that they wanted money or any financial support ever. In my upbringing, (roman catholic), we are told that nothing to do witht he bible should be sold, anything holy or blessed should be free. They also speak of not asking for money, yet, every church uses collection plates, there are manythings for sale, and even bibles are being sold. Not to mention the catholic church is one of the richest institutions int he world. IT isnt about god anymore, its about power

This seeps into the congrigation, because the teachings are passed down from priest to priest, mandated by the vatican. The priests can only learn what the vatican teaches them about the bible, therefore they can only teach us what they know, and assume based on there teachings, which is

Follow god, or go to hell....

So we follow, and follow throughout the years, and because of those teachings, we inevitably teach others to follow.

Nowadays, things seem to be different. More and more people arent following the church. They are looking in themselves for answers, and are actualy doing some learning themselves. We are learning most of our beliefs will NEVER be validated, and that mine is just as "right" as yours. We are also putting science into our paradigm now, which is making even more of the oldschool way of thinking obselete. We are learning that there are 2 ways to see tihngs, scientificaly, and metaphoricaly (philisophicaly).

I agree tht being open to other beliefs is the best way to learn, but unfortunalty most of our traditions frown upon them. They dont let us have the freedom to pursue things as we see fit. THey make us feel guilty of even thinking about something other then itself. Not to mention monotheism cant even agree with itself, using the same damn books....

ITs as simple as figuring out we know litearly nothing... NOTHING. The worlds paradigm changes every few decades, and within a century, we barly reconise it compared to the latter. Understanding that our veiws WILL change, is the only way to keep an open mind.. Blindly following religions isnt the way

[NightSpirit]

Most of your post Time is about religious bashing.

Understanding that our veiws WILL change, is the only way to keep an open mind..

This is the only thing i am nodding my head to. I'm grappling with how you got to christian religion from going down the rabbit hole?

Because most of us are christian, and the posts were talking abotu being open minded, whicih christianity is anything but generaly

Originally Posted by Gem

Now it becomes apparent nothing comforting in this thread, but if you want to tear things down, have the safety net pulled out from under you, be pushed to the boundry, teeter precariously, be pulled like gravity, feel your grip slipping, let go and fall or hold on for dear life... ...

Or simply want to walk your own Path.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Or simply want to walk your own Path.

I doesn't really matter which path in particular... there are things that apply universally to whoever walks which ever, such as awareness, sentience or being... and everything that occurs on whichever path is secondary to that.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by mattie

One can consider their own beliefs completely unfounded or “a ruse, a ‘personal lie’ if one chooses or as a device to comfort, coddle, tempt or distract them, but it is entirely presumptive to think that this is how others look at their own beliefs, formulate them, or use their beliefs. Others can have beliefs because this is simply how they see things.

I know many cling to beliefs, but if people look into their past they will see their belief has changed with time and that only demonstrates how this belief that is held now will be forgone.

This implies that others don’t or can’t respect beliefs that are not their own. This may be true for some, but certainly isn’t true for all. It isn’t as much respecting the person who has the belief, but respecting the RIGHT of the person to have the belief. This is the flip side of our expecting for others to grant us the RIGHT to have whatever beliefs we want.

No questioning the right? We think very softly about mediocre things but the reality is not that. The Christian belief is not benign, it has been the justification of war, the burning of 'witches' instilling the fear of hell into young children, homophobia... the war on terror.

In the way an islamc extremist believes you must die, you infidel dog.

We wish to say we have the RIGHT, that we respect it, based on our comfortable benign scenerios... the reality says different.

This seems to say that a belief isn’t valid because we adopted it at some stage. This would invalidate all learning. That it is a ‘personal truth’ doesn’t mean it has to be one that birthed originally w/ us, just a belief that we consider to be the truth.

If it is practical like I believe if I drop this it will fall... then we learn.

Thats good because if simply might be true it's easy to drop when the proof is in the pudding. It doesn't matter then.

Our being inherently flawed is one of the cornerstones of religions that are based on our being sinners. For those who believe in these religions literally it is often a truth to them.

Others say we are perfect, ideal spiritualists mainly, so we can be inherantly flawed or perfect, doesn't matter, we are 'this way' not some other way.

This is presuming that others also aren’t comfortable w/ their beliefs, always questioning them. Not necessarily the case. Being open to allowing for beliefs to change & evolve or grow is different than never considering a belief real because it can’t be validated sufficiently for our own specific criteria, but to each their own in how we process these things.

If the belief is opening and changing then it will be very different in time, so this belief held now isn't 'truth' personal or otherwize, and it is factually inevitable that the belief will change... everything changes...

[Gem]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

hmmm...i dont believe that Gem. I can say 'someone' loves me and know this for a fact. It doesn't need validating.

I can say there's a tree in my back yard and it doesn't have to validated, so the experience speaks for itself and if someone loves you then you're very lucky.