Why is belief wrong?

[Ordnael]

Quoting myself on the subject, It is the duty of the prudent soul to replace belief with knowledge.

The problem is who you're gonna trust to give you knowledge. In the story presented, the old man trusted everyone and convinced himself he knew the truth.

The solution presented, not believing them, would solve the problem if he was capable of making the journey by himself.

He didn't have a reliable guide who could take him there, show him what he needs to see and explain everything.

In a world full of false teachers and blind guides, I have to conclude by saying that The ability to find the truth is a special power, without which souls are lead astray.

Originally Posted by Ordnael

Quoting myself on the subject, It is the duty of the prudent soul to replace belief with knowledge.

The problem is who you're gonna trust to give you knowledge. In the story presented, the old man trusted everyone and convinced himself he knew the truth.
The ability to find the truth is a special power, without which souls are lead astray.

In the story we assume each travelers the man meets are all telling the man the truth, so we understand the truth is being told. The problem is the old man doesn't really know the truth until he experiences it himself. He can believe but what does he really know from this.
Ask the old man how did the water feel when you had to swim that river? Ask the old man what it was like walking on sand. Ask the old man what was the view like from the top? Will the old man be able to tell you the truth? No, not at all. All he has is belief from what he was told true or not.

As far as this guide for the traveler the one needing to explain everything to the traveler on his journey. Is it because the old man is stupid and soulless, unable to take the journey for himself without direction? I understand that you have this guide already and it is your soul. As you journey it is the soul that is the guide. When you are learning in life it is the soul's power that activates the brain for learning. I know your soul knows everything I mean everything. Can we learn to read on our own? Yes, we can. Can we learn math, science, politics on our own? Yes, we can. Study. You ask is the study the truth? Your soul should be guiding you in that direction because of your study. We do not need a tour guide in life. We need clarity and your soul will provide this if you are willing to take the journey or journeys.

You are thought provoking, everyone is. Thank You so much for being here.

I love your attention to understanding. Undertsand your soul and it's power is all you really need.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Ordnael

In a world full of false teachers and blind guides, I have to conclude by saying that The ability to find the truth is a special power, without which souls are lead astray.

so here the problem is itself a solution to another problem that noone would dare pose if it weren't for the desire for 'truth'....

the thing is, if others COULD take me to this place I want to go, I would willingly go with them, because as we all know it is much easier to be taken than move yourself about. but it wouldn't be at my volition it would be at theirs. And it wouldn't be at theirs it would be at whoever took THEM. And so on and so on and so on.

And meanwhile i wouldn't have my own sense of agency for how to deal with the experiences I have I'd be doing pretty much their desires as they lived them when they went there which would be a stretching out of the desires of all who had gone before...

So this fact, that noone is ever actually able to take me to certain places no matter how hard they will plead with me that they can... combined with the strong desire to know what is what with some kind of certainty, is kinda the kick i need, to get me to move myself about. Because no matter how beautiful it is when others do things for me there is one thing they just simply CAN'T do, and that is BE me. Look at the world the way I look at it, respond to it the way I respond to it.

But when I go down this path where I'm wanting to do the easy thing and just let someone take me away, I also wanna do just that. Want them to tell me what I see, and what it is, and how I should respond to it.

So them frustrating me, not being able to show me something I want to see but instead flowering me with seemingly worthless words, is the impetuous I need to quit listening to their excuses as to why they can't help me do something they shouldn't be doing for me anyway, and simply decide how much it is worth it to go see it on my own. Did I really want that or was I just going along because it was the 'in' thing to do? On the other hand is it really worth it to fight with their attitudes just so I can get to some supposedly lovely place? Or would I rather just do something else entirely???? Or maybe I DO want to see this place for myself for whatever reason, and decide to do that for myself as myself for a change.

But for me, sometimes just sleep is the grandest adventure I can think to go on!

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

But for me, sometimes just sleep is the grandest adventure I can think to go on!

Yes, it can be. You sleep and the spirit once again is the guide. The dream can be strange, confusing, nightmarish, loving, etc. But we are on a journey and guess who is the guide? Your soul.

But who is this that you want to take you, move your body for you? I go with the Spirit when it calls. I learn this way, but the spirit never says look at that, and I want to tell you what that is. The Spirit makes me think and never tells me the exact thing I am watching because if it did, I just would not learn and soon I would be too ignorant to learn anything in life. If the traveler is given or handed knowledge the knowledge would never be recognized and soon the knowledge would be forgotten as it was never actually learned. It would be forgotten, and I do not know why it is like this.

It is like a teacher is giving a test. The teacher has gone over everything all semester with you. You study for the test. Then what. You vomit it up at test time and remember very little after. Why? It wasn't a real study. Someone has shown you something and you say okay teacher move me I cannot move me. They do and now they say. Vomit up what I told you on this paper. Being able to retain what is taught seems to be secondary when you have someone moving you.

I do love what you are saying. I just wish I understood why this has been a feeling of yours.

Do you know how heavy this body is. It's huge, it is so heavy. When you are spirit movement is so free so uninhibited. I know these bodies are heavy as hell but think how much your spirit wants to move you. Your spirit loves you and will move you more effectively than anything on this world or another.

If you can tell me, what is it that moves, you or can move you. Other than you and your soul?
I am very familiar with this topic if I think you are speaking about what I think you are talking about. Be very careful brother. Never give control to anyone or anything. I do not give control to Spirit and Spirit loves me too much to take me over. It is not kind or loving to be possessed by something. Not even when that something is as magnificent as the Holy Spirit. It just isn't proper for this to happen. It is in my opinion a serious violation.

Love you, be careful.

[weareunity]

Hello all.

The question asked in the thread title has many facets. We might attempt to analyse "belief" as a general phenomenon without reference to any particular belief---in which case asking the question "is it wrong" doesn't seem to be able to be a meaningful tool in that analysis because in that analysis we are simply studying the vehicle, not the road upon which the vehicle may be used, not to where to, not to why etc.

The where, the why, the how etc. only become evident as the consequences of holding/having/ following an unspecified but particular belief. But-- the occurrence of such consequences may not necessarily have been the consequences actually intended by those holding such belief. So judgement of rightness or wrongness in such circumstances is a quandry of uncertainty--and can only be considered certain with reference to the stated ambitions/aims/intent upon which such belief is built, or can be reckoned to be reasonably certain if there are consistent results over periods of time which suggest that following such belief will have similar consequences.

Beside there being such quandry, there is obviously the question of how do we determine what is right from what is wrong?

Given sufficient and common goodwill we could usefully follow the "golden rule" as a starting point.

Is this a belief? Is it wrong to believe it?

Cheers.X.

[lemex]

I don't know why it's felt belief is wrong. It can be. We will always have them. Is the question implying it is or asking is it. Belief shouldn't be thought of as negative as this will always direct you there. What about belief with knowledge. You will have a belief after climbing the mountain. Why would that belief of the journey be wrong. We are talking about clarity of belief. One can even (and will) have a belief of truth once that happens. That belief might be ego but had to smile though, I can relate to the story just won't say how. The story is relatable as a guide and sometimes path.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Ordnael

Quoting myself on the subject, It is the duty of the prudent soul to replace belief with knowledge.

Yes, I say that often ...
Isn't it better to know rather than just believe?
KNOW that you can move that mountain ...not just have faith or belief!
(I say.) I suppose I feel strongly about it since I know both ways.

Originally Posted by weareunity

Beside there being such quandry, there is obviously the question of how do we determine what is right from what is wrong?

Given sufficient and common goodwill we could usefully follow the "golden rule" as a starting point.

Is this a belief? Is it wrong to believe it?

We first understand the story in order to understand what is wrong. What is wrong with the old man going home? Nothing, right? His belief is to never know the journey. Is this wrong, no not for the believer. It is never wrong for the believer in any circumstance. In your query I wonder where the clarity about the story may be found, and the man is who? If the man is the vehicle, the vehicle went home. If the road is the journey, then did the car ... ? Not trying to be stupid because I am, pretty stupid. I really want to understand the analogy because I see something. It seems interesting. Can you explain? What are we examining I guess is the proper question. And does this have anything to do with the man and the mountain?

I see this weareunity, if you are between two rules one rule says you must climb but the other is saying to crawl. Believe one is right and one is wrong? Why would you do that? Or both are right? If that is so why are there two rules as one goes this way and the other goes that way. Understand? Maybe if we had clarity, we wouldn't be in this situation at all. Maybe with clarity the golden rule is no more. What happens then? I think the main point of the story is clarity and how the old man misses clarity because he believes. Yes? is it wrong? No, not if you are the believer. I wish we all had clarity.

Love you brother.

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

While we understand the message and nuances and also believe beliefs may be superstition also if not backed by reality/logic, quoted statement too is a belief which can be wrong.

Sorry statement is clarity my brother. Not what you think. I already told you I believe in nothing. Why would I just believe what I said is true, when I know what I said is true?
Why is this not a belief? Because I took the journey HITESH SHAH, had you taken the same journey we would understand each other.
To you I have only belief. But do you understand the impotence of clarity? Do you understand the importance of the journey?

Is belief better than clarity, HITESH SHAH? If so, please explain why?

[weareunity]

Hello Nobody 444 and all.

I have edited the first line of post 15 from "The question asked in the opening post"--- to "The question asked in the thread title".
I should have been more precise initially. My apologies. Cheers.X.