I-Ching

Originally Posted by Topology

the stacking of turtles goes on forever.

Yes, either you invoke a cascade of infinitely regressive causes, or you concede that life can exist uncreated and unbegotten.

That's the curious thing about creationism. One of their assertions is that appearance of life is so improbable that it demands a creator. And yet, in the same breath, they say that the living "God" has always existed (i.e., is uncreated).

They say that since everything is born from something else, than everything must have been born of something, and yet they say that "God" was never born.

Then they postulate an "Orderer" because of the order of the universe.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

If there is order there must be an Orderer.

This begs the question, is the "Orderer" ordered? They claim that it is the epitome of order and, once again in the same breath, admit that nothing ordered that. So, once again they must admit that order can exist without external cause or interference.

I would urge I-ching to delve a little deeper into complexity theory and the phenomenon of self-organization. And yes, order does emerge from chaos.
Research is recommended.

"God", as a pre-existent supreme creator being, is completely unnecessary.

Self-organization. Two disjoint molecules come close enough to have a chemical reaction and then a more complex molecule (more organized) is created.

Emergent behaviour is a very familiar phenomena to computer scientists. A set of simple laws will create a symphony of complex behaviors.

Originally Posted by LIFE

I-Ching,

If "God" is a living entity and "every living entity comes from another living entity"...then my question is:

What being did the living entity known as "God" come from?

When you use the term God you have to understand what it means God is by definition a being that is omnipotent. Therefore he is not subservient to time, and by definition has no beginning or end, for He is the source of time.

In this perverted material world nothingness and darkness are the default condition, but in real Spiritual World light and God are the default.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

When you use the term God you have to understand what it means God is by definition a being that is omnipotent. Therefore he is not subservient to time, and by definition has no beginning or end, for He is the source of time.

In this perverted material world nothingness and darkness are the default condition, but in real Spiritual World light and God are the default.

I have no experience with any entity that meets your description of God. How am I to know that the God you've described actually exists?

Originally Posted by Topology

I have no experience with any entity that meets your description of God. How am I to know that the God you've described actually exists?

As a human being your senses are very limited so all human beings have a very limited experience of reality. Even quantum physics guesses that there may be 27 dimensions.
Using your intelligence you can know that God exists by seeing that every living entity comes from another. You also know by incredibly intelligent design of this world and there are many other good arguments.
But in terms of have some first hand experience of God you can know by practising the process of bhakti-yoga which consists primarily of chanting the Names of God. You can only really know the taste of honey by tasting it. Similarly if you want know the President then you must serve the President and when he is pleased with your service he will allow you to meet him. Not just anyone can meet the President, certainly not those who are opposed to him.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

As a human being your senses are very limited so all human beings have a very limited experience of reality. Even quantum physics guesses that there may be 27 dimensions.

1. Quantum physicist don't guess. They decide based on mathematical models
2. Just some reasonable fact checking, String Theory (follow the link), which is liberal with its number of dimensions only has 11 dimensions not 27.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

Using your intelligence you can know that God exists by seeing that every living entity comes from another. You also know by incredibly intelligent design of this world and there are many other good arguments.

You are trying to make logical arguments. I am a formal logician. I've studied logic formally, mathematically, and linguistically for the last 12 years. I know its limitations through and through.

1. Logic cannot give you anything more than what you started with. God cannot be derived from non-God using logic.

2. Logic only reveals contradictions between premises it does not tell you which premises are false, only that they do not fit together.

3. The faculty which assigned truth to statements is intuition.

4. Intuition is a product of experience and imagination.

5. Our intuition can be heavily tainted by presumption and fancy until we challenge it and refine it and give it new experiences. Often we have to go outside of ourselves and have others help us find failings with our presumptions.

The decision as to the existence of God cannot come from logic, it must come from intuition. Since I refuse to base what I believe to be true off of imagination, I am left to experience to guide me. This brings the discovery of truth and any transcendental presence to the exploration of consciousness. Seeing truth is a function of Clarity. Clarity is a quality of the state of one's mind and faculties. Logic operates on thoughts which are the shadows cast by Clear Sight. Truth can only be seen for oneself, not conveyed through words. The best approach to seeing Truth for the first time is a retreat from untruth. Drop the things which interfere with your Intuitive Sight. Cultivate a Still Mind.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

But in terms of have some first hand experience of God you can know by practising the process of bhakti-yoga which consists primarily of chanting the Names of God. You can only really know the taste of honey by tasting it.

How can I practice Bhakti when the only image, picture, name, concept of God that I have is purely from my imagination?

Originally Posted by I-Ching

Similarly if you want know the President then you must serve the President and when he is pleased with your service he will allow you to meet him. Not just anyone can meet the President, certainly not those who are opposed to him.

So I am a dog that must please its master? Is that how you think about yourself and your relationship to your God?

I can see the president, I can't see or experience any God to which you are referring.

How am I to perceive god so that I may experience him and not imagine him?

Originally Posted by Topology

How can I practice Bhakti when the only image, picture, name, concept of God that I have is purely from my imagination?

There is no need to imagine anything. There is a great deal of information give about God in the Vedic scriptures. We can see God by through our ears by submissively hearing from the Vedas. God’s form, qualities and activities are all described.

Originally Posted by Topology

So I am a dog that must please its master? Is that how you think about yourself and your relationship to your God?

I can see the president, I can't see or experience any God to which you are referring.

How am I to perceive god so that I may experience him and not imagine him?

It is natural that the lover wants to please the beloved. Our relationship with God is not exploitative, when the hand serves the stomach the whole body is nourished including the hand. If hand wants serve itself then it is simply diseased. In the same way that because we are part and parcel of God, when God is pleased with you then you also experience pleasure. Our constitutional position is that we are servants, if we are in illusion we serve our senses and if we are not we serve God, but in either case our nature is to serve.

By the president analogy I mean that because the President is an important person you cannot meet Him face to face.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said “Don’t try to see God, act in such a way that God wants to see you.”

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by I-Ching

There is no need to imagine anything. There is a great deal of information give about God in the Vedic scriptures. We can see God by through our ears by submissively hearing from the Vedas. God’s form, qualities and activities are all described.

Reading all of this creates imagination in your mind. It influences your experiences.. So how can we present it as objective? ;-)

Topology..
"Truth can only be seen for oneself, not conveyed through words. The best approach to seeing Truth for the first time is a retreat from untruth."

Bravo!

[Gem]

There is no Truth. Ironic statement that.