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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Lifestyle > Vegetarian & Vegan

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  #61  
Old 01-01-2020, 07:43 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
but then, if you look closely at Buddhism, it was Asoka who introduced vegetarianism.




Many Buddhists advocate vegetarianism, but none I know of advocate veganism, because consuming the products of amimals without harming the animals doesn't contravene Buddhist ethics. However, those ethics were put in place before factory farming, and nowdays, pretty much all animal products, dairy etc, involve the harming of animals. Eggs are usually considered to be an animal, so most sects don't consume eggs, and many omit onions and garlic like the vedic traditions do.


My own stance is more from the understanding of ethical dilemmas, and where we might take a stance against consuming meat and animal derived food for the sake of animal welfare, we could also be undermining the nutrition of entire peoples who can't afford nor have access to the variety of food and supplementation which are available to higher income earners in the West. Hence I appreciate the 'grey areas' of ethical issues, and having no absolute moral position, can only consider individual circumstances and perhaps go the way of 'lesser evils' at best.
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  #62  
Old 01-01-2020, 08:29 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Originally Posted by Gem
Eggs are usually considered to be an animal, so most sects don't consume eggs, and many omit onions and garlic like the vedic traditions do.

Eggs can be, and often are, infertile. Of course it's been common practice throughout history to always keep a rooster close by, but even then many eggs aren't fertile. What's interesting is that these traditions claim to have a lot of prowess yet can't see the aura of a chicken egg or pierce through the veil with their ''3rd eye'' and see that the egg is infertile.
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  #63  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:29 PM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair
Yeah, that ain't great. Cows outside however are a different game. If a pasture is organic there are no pesticides and herbicides used and the cows have an important function. Cow poo + wildflowers << insects << birds. You'll find more birds and insects in a field of cows that isn't sprayed than in an organic field of one crop, usually. In my country nature organizations recognize this and use cows in semi-natural landscapes and wet grasslands. This https://harmonyorganic.ca/images/con...ny-organic.jpg is usually better than this https://pixfeeds.com/images/gardenin...bean-field.jpg. Considering my background I'm far more concerned with ecology and the big picture than with ''individual rights'' of every single farm animal.



Not the free range chicken I have in mind anyway.


No I don't agree on that at all. I said so back then in the part you quoted. In veganism it is all or nothing, no in-betweens. That's not how I view the world.


Happy New Year to you too Altair. I hope it’s the beginning of a good one for you and for the world.

The days of cows on meadows seems to be a thing of memory only. Before I returned to BC (current home), I lived in rural Nova Scotia near the Annapolis Valley. And with several dairy farms within shouting distance of my place, no cows outside there either. It’s not efficient for milking times and management and in their estimation an inefficient use of land. That land around those barns, was always harvested multiple times a year, providing hay or corn for fodder for those cows through the winter. So cows now, stay indoors where their feed is measured and weighed so that it’s easier to determine if they’re ‘worth the money it costs to feed them’. And if not, off to the slaughterhouse. So if you happen to be a vegetarian and think the there’s no death and abuse with milk or eggs, you’d be mistaken on both counts. 

And regarding your example, organic or not, those cows are still being fed through the winter, which means massive mono-crops of corn and/or hay to get them through. And that means land was cleared and has large, oil using machinery harvesting multiple times a year and then moved into storage for use later. So combine all the emissions from those machines and trucks with the (bovine flatulence and belching and yes, it has an impact on the world’s emissions levels) and there’s one more reason why eggs and dairy are not ethical or beneficial to the world or individuals.

As well, those ‘organic’ cows, are being bred almost annually while being milked and losing each calf who either replaces another ‘old’ cow in a couple years or is either slaughtered immediately or later and sold as veal.

Which country are you in anyway? Canada has some of the worst animal welfare laws in the Western world. I once read a comparison of EU regulations vs. Canada’s and I was truly embarrassed. Not that the Europeans are any kinder to their animals (when no one is looking).
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We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form.
William Ralph Inge (1860-1954)
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  #64  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:48 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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There's death and slaughter in every diet, Debrah.

People eat veg and fruit, and those fields are sprayed with pesticides killing insects. People eat beans or grains and visiting rodents, boars, and deer will be poisoned or receive a bullet when they try to have their share. This is all deliberate and not accidental. You think your diet is less harm but you don't know that. You'd have to look into every food group that you or anyone else eats, and where it comes from and how it was produced. Backyard chickens have far less impact than any beans from elsewhere.

I think there's much room for some animal agriculture, especially cows and chickens. Cows can be part of a healthy ecosystem in semi-natural landscapes, whereas chickens can be combined with fruit trees. As humans, dogs, and cats all need animal food in their diet for optimal health it is a pure fantasy to imagine veganism has any relevance in the future of agriculture. For me this is about choosing the ''lesser evil'', as Gem mentioned. Animals are killed no matter what we choose, so it's about transforming agriculture into a more ecologically sound practice.
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  #65  
Old 01-01-2020, 10:03 PM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair
Debrah, hello and happy new year!

There are many arguments to favour egg consumption, if done small scale. Eggs are nutritious and contain nutrients that you for instance lack on your vegan diet. Humans need some animal food in their diets and without it you are gambling with your health. I won't stop you in your ethics but you seem to think veganism is the answer to both health and environment but it isn't that simple.




Chickens can be taken care of, given plenty of food, a roof over their heads, protection from predators can be done very well. All humans ask in return is eggs, and taking eggs does not reduce age span of hens or give them horrible lives, that's vegan propaganda.

Chickens do not have the same ''feelings'' as I do and only a few same basic needs. All animals (that includes us) are different and have different needs and degrees of feelings and empathy. A human is not the same as a chicken, and a chicken is not the same as a dog. I grew up with chickens and dogs and while I like chickens they're not comparable to the degree a dog bonds with a human or how a dog feels.

People have domesticated animals in the Holocene and have co-evolved with them. Keeping chickens small scale is one of the most environmentally friendly ways to get protein.



The way we treat animals and use them to our benefit is a case by case matter and not black and white. We all have to settle with a greyish world where we improve animal welfare and don't abandon keeping animals around. Not just for ourselves, but also for our cats and dogs, mind you. Or should we only have rabbit pets and feed them with constant fresh lettuce? (which also has an environmental cost..).

In veganism every animal becomes the same, there is only equality. Why then do you eat food at all may I ask? Buying or eating any type of food will contribute to animals being killed. If it's ''all or nothing'' than you can't eat anything by your own standards I'm afraid.



There are no nutrients lacking in my vegan diet that requires anything from eggs. You don’t need it, you don’t need animal products, that is purely a myth. 

The only thing I have to take a supplement for is B12, but that’s not because B12 is inherently in meat. It’s produced by bacteria found in the soil and B12 is likewise added to animal feed because they don’t make it in their bodies.

Texas Midland Memorial Hospital began encouraging their recovering patients to chose the vegan options from the hospital menu, a couple years ago. They also began offering plant based cooking classes in their hospital community health program and they encourage staff, patients and the public to get involved and learn a different way to nourish their bodies. Would they do that, if there was any problem with a vegan diet? There are currently about 5 well known American hospitals who are doing the same. https://www.midlandhealth.org/main/p...ased-nutrition

A great documentary that you can watch on Netflix, is The Gamechangers. With the program focussing on the world’s top athletes and the impact that switching to a vegan diet has had on their health, performance and ability to recover, it’s a must see for anyone who’s interested in optimum health. In case you’re open minded enough to watch, here’s a link to their official trailer…..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSpglxHTJVM

What is black and white to me Altair, that you can’t seem to grasp, is that DELIBERATELY choosing a lifestyle that includes using (and thus abusing) any animals for my own purpose, is what I am against. Yes, I have to eat too and some critters pay a terrible price and I grieve for that. BUT, those aren’t deliberate deaths in the same way as your diet includes or worse, a meat inclusive diet. Even in a court of law, we see examples of ‘murder’ vs. ‘Manslaughter’. One is deliberate, the other is an unlawful killing that wasn’t intended.

This thread started with the question, ‘are eggs ethical to eat’. I find it interesting that the discussion has included an apparent change in what qualifies as ethics. It seems a stretch to consider that ground up, live chicks and spent hens being hauled off for slaughter when they’re young (worn out) birds, could ever be considered ethical.

While it might seem like the answer that we should all be eating organic, free range whatever, the fact is that those types of products are at best only 5% of the entire market. A blip so small as to be inconsequential in the big picture of the environment. That ‘answer’ also ignores the issue of disposing of the young ‘byproducts’ of those species in question, as well as the older animals whose production is falling. Farmers don’t keep and retire old animals, they ship them off to be slaughtered in the same nightmarish places that the CAFO animals wind up in. Black and White, LEAST HARM instead of going out looking for something to die on purpose.
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We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form.
William Ralph Inge (1860-1954)
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  #66  
Old 01-01-2020, 10:14 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
There are no nutrients lacking in my vegan diet that requires anything from eggs. You don’t need it, you don’t need animal products, that is purely a myth. 

The only thing I have to take a supplement for is B12, but that’s not because B12 is inherently in meat. It’s produced by bacteria found in the soil and B12 is likewise added to animal feed because they don’t make it in their bodies.

If veganism was actually more 'natural' than all the people in poor countries shouldn't have nutritional deficiencies as they are less likely to eat animal food. Au contraire, these people will eat animal foods if given the chance. In animal foods there are a number of nutrients in far greater quantities than you'll find in plant foods, such as protein, calcium, and vitamin B12. We also need animal fat for optimal brain functioning. Supplements are not the same as real food, it's better to get nutrients directly from food. You are never going to convince me of veganism, Debrah, and this topic is about eggs (and keeping chickens) specifically so this also ain't the place to preach about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
What is black and white to me Altair, that you can’t seem to grasp, is that DELIBERATELY choosing a lifestyle that includes using (and thus abusing) any animals for my own purpose, is what I am against.

So do you Debrah. You buy and eat food, which deliberately harms wildlife whether you want to admit to that fact or not. Not putting animal foods in your body does not mean you do not contribute to animal suffering. The use of pesticides and poisoning and shooting of rodents, boars, geese etc. IS deliberate. It's not just a few critters here and there. You need to wake up to this reality.

Taken everything together - animal welfare, environment, human health - it is the best course of action to improve agriculture and make it more ecologically sound. Animals are still a necessary part of that.
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  #67  
Old 04-04-2020, 09:19 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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It seems like more people are thinking about getting chickens.
Just goes to show how efficient and sustainable backyard chickens are!!


“People are panic-buying chickens like they did toilet paper”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/s...ronavirus.html

'We Are Swamped': Coronavirus Propels Interest In Raising Backyard Chickens For Eggs

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/03/82692...ickens-for-egg
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