so if its not supposed to be a romantic relationship..?

[Teal]

Just thinking I would like to hear or read more of this study.
Cake cures all I tell ya!!!

Originally Posted by SerpentQueen

Researchers who study the science of happiness say that once we get what we desire, our satisfaction wanes. In other words, it is the desire itself-- the anticipation -- the dangling carrot -- that is sweeter than acquiring and possessing the object of desire.

Spiritual gurus say that it is desire that causes suffering. Stop desiring and you end the cycle of suffering.

I say that desire is what makes the universe go round. It is the very engery that created form out of the formless. Desire is not what causes suffering. One can appreciate desire for desire's sake, recognizing that it is the anticipation, the longing, and perhaps most of all the HOPE, that we may someday hold on to that dangling carrot, that makes us happy and not the carrot itself.
To answer your question: I do believe TFs are all about the romance. But perhaps, just maybe, these are relationships that are always supposed to be just out of reach, and never come to fruition as a day-to-day, under-one-roof sort of relationship.

And perhaps it is the energy of desire that is the mission itself?

Just theorizing.

I'm onto this a bit late. Excellent point, but I would take it a step further. Desire itself is born of the mind, its expectations and illusions create the carrot. I would say that the reason that happiness regresses once the goal has been met is to do more with the reality not meeting the expectation.
I would argue that it even goes beyond that. That it is our attachment to expectations that causes suffering. If we could just allow the mind it's space to build up it's scenarios and not get sucked into identification with it, we may then have a crack at enjoying the fruits of our labour.

I'm onto this a bit late. Excellent point, but I would take it a step further. Desire itself is born of the mind, its expectations and illusions create the carrot. I would say that the reason that happiness regresses once the goal has been met is to do more with the reality not meeting the expectation.
I would argue that it even goes beyond that. That it is our attachment to expectations that causes suffering. If we could just allow the mind it's space to build up it's scenarios and not get sucked into identification with it, we may then have a crack at enjoying the fruits of our labour.

I agree with this.

Originally Posted by Buzz

I'm onto this a bit late. Excellent point, but I would take it a step further. Desire itself is born of the mind, its expectations and illusions create the carrot.

Or is desire born of the heart, and expectations and illusions-- which come from the mind -- create the suffering?

Imagine your favorite flavor ice cream on a hot day. Is your desire for that ice cream causing suffering? Is that desire coming from your mind or your heart?

I would say that the reason that happiness regresses once the goal has been met is to do more with the reality not meeting the expectation.

Except that's not what the research says. Even when reality meets expectation, our satisfaction eventually peaks, then wanes. I may be explaining this incorrectly: the idea is that we have a set-point for happiness to which we always return. Even when we think we are never going to be happy again -- sure enough, we return to our natural set point. Even when we think something will make us deliriously happy forever and ever, sure enough, we settle back down to our natural set point.

Ugh, I wish I could find the study, I haven't had time to search for it again. Google science of happiness.. it's a whole area of study right now, at places including Harvard. There is some professor there. I am trying to remember where I read this, I think it was in a book not an article. Within say the last 5 years. (I read too much).

I would argue that it even goes beyond that. That it is our attachment to expectations that causes suffering.

Yes, I agree with that. We expect the carrot will make us deliriously happy forever and ever. We suffer when we find we inevitably return right back to whatever our natural set point was to begin with.

The secret to happy relationships? Happy people.

Can you change your set point? The golden question. A relationship or any other carrot is not going to do it. I like to think you can change your set point, but I do not know. I don't know if anyone knows this. It's possible that those who think you can, were already naturally happy types to begin with.

If we could just allow the mind it's space to build up it's scenarios and not get sucked into identification with it, we may then have a crack at enjoying the fruits of our labour.

Or we can just appreciate the desiring for the sweet thing it can be, like that ice cream. Enjoy, devour... know it is fleeting satisfaction just like everything is fleeting.

Originally Posted by tealtwist

Just thinking I would like to hear or read more of this study.
Cake cures all I tell ya!!!

Sorry Teal.. I tried, but got sidetracked. Will continue trying when I can. See my other post.. try googling science of happiness. There are several books by this title. Not sure which one this was in. There must be an article online too, if you get clever with the googling you may be able to find it faster than I can.

I read a lot and often remember the 'takeaways' and 'broad strokes' -- but not the details. So it is possible I am mucking up the details. Just want to add that in case anyone wants to correct me -- I'm all ears.

Theres some good points. My own experience is that the heart offers direction and promises nothing and yet there is an intuitive aspect to its leanings that cannot be ignored.
It's OK SQ, I am never swept away by any other research than my own, I tend to be the expert in my own little lifetime project. :)
And yes the transitory nature of life certainly pushes us to live in the moment as by the time we reach our destination we may not even want to be there anymore.

Originally Posted by Jatd

Alright well I want the carrot too! Now tell me how I get it back!!! I don't want any other carrot either! ONLY THAT ONE!

I feel the same way..damn elusive carrots!

The point you're making reminds me of the infamous line from Spock in the original Star Trek series:

Having is not so pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true.

Live long and prosper

[L88]

Originally Posted by SerpentQueen

Or is desire born of the heart, and expectations and illusions-- which come from the mind -- create the suffering?

Imagine your favorite flavor ice cream on a hot day. Is your desire for that ice cream causing suffering? Is that desire coming from your mind or your heart?





Except that's not what the research says. Even when reality meets expectation, our satisfaction eventually peaks, then wanes. I may be explaining this incorrectly: the idea is that we have a set-point for happiness to which we always return. Even when we think we are never going to be happy again -- sure enough, we return to our natural set point. Even when we think something will make us deliriously happy forever and ever, sure enough, we settle back down to our natural set point.

Ugh, I wish I could find the study, I haven't had time to search for it again. Google science of happiness.. it's a whole area of study right now, at places including Harvard. There is some professor there. I am trying to remember where I read this, I think it was in a book not an article. Within say the last 5 years. (I read too much).



Yes, I agree with that. We expect the carrot will make us deliriously happy forever and ever. We suffer when we find we inevitably return right back to whatever our natural set point was to begin with.

The secret to happy relationships? Happy people.

Can you change your set point? The golden question. A relationship or any other carrot is not going to do it. I like to think you can change your set point, but I do not know. I don't know if anyone knows this. It's possible that those who think you can, were already naturally happy types to begin with.



Or we can just appreciate the desiring for the sweet thing it can be, like that ice cream. Enjoy, devour... know it is fleeting satisfaction just like everything is fleeting.

I think these theories only could apply to some 'normal' relationships. And that's if you could first accept the theory of a 'happiness set point', which I'm having a hard time doing. I, personally, don't believe there are any real limitations to Human emotion, just the ones we make up. Sort of like the way many of us here question 'Why do I feel such intense love for this person' when really the question is 'why shouldn't you? Who told you you were never supposed to love that way? And who were they to tell you such a thing?'. Oh, science, some things really aren't meant to be analyzed, some things truly are amazing, for instance, my ability to even write this response.

Originally Posted by orgiva67

Excellent post! Just what I need to hear today. Thank you.

You are welcome. Glad I could help.