Emptiness and suffering

[Humanb]

I received my 2nd teaching on emptiness today at my local Buddhist temple.
As with most teachings, you often need to hear them several times before you really gain true wisdom.

While i understood the teachings and realized how true they were, i was still slightly confused about how it all fits together.

We did a meditation in which we attempted to find ourself and we couldn't find ourself, i'm not the body and i'm not the mind either, the conclusion was that we are nothing at all. So i understood this part, but i do not understand how suffering can cease to exist for somebody who has realized there is no self... I've realized that the consciousness can alter reality, but i can't consciously alter reality just because of a realization.

It seems too much like a conceptual understanding...

"I'm in pain, wait no.. There is no me to be in pain."

If i burnt my hand on a kettle right now with the realization that there is no self, i would perceive pain, therefore the suffering hasn't ceased to exist because that unpleasant sensation is still existent.

Also, i confronted a monk about my meditations on emptiness and how my body and external world dissipated when i achieved good focus and apparently this meditation isn't beneficial at all and this isn't emptiness.
This actually made me feel pretty bad because this is a meditation i had been practicing for most of my spiritual journey and to be told it isn't beneficial to me or others is like ripping the path beneath my feet.

I love Buddhism because it is profound and i know deep down it is truth, but i thought i was beginning to understand it. Now i just have no idea what i'm doing, i feel lost..

[sunsoul]

I would see a truth like emptiness as something that you would unravel over time and that further realisations would be to come. I don't think anyone expects you to directly understand the nature of emptiness in one go or after a short space of time. From your perspective, patience will help..

If, after some time, you still feel at odds with what is being taught and how it is being taught you may want to find another temple or teacher. Without knowing the exact details I think this will be a last resort, though.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Humanb

If i burnt my hand on a kettle right now with the realization that there is no self, i would perceive pain, therefore the suffering hasn't ceased to exist because that unpleasant sensation is still existent.

The realization of no self is the realization of what you are beyond mind .

In such a realization there is no kettle, there is no-one present that could be associated with anything .

If one is aware of something/someone making tea that could quite possibly burn their hand then there is something/someone in experience that is making tea and burning their hand .

So the realization that there is no self is one thing and the burning of the hand is another . One cannot be of the realization and making tea .

One can however realize that beyond mind there is no self, but whilst one entertains the mind there is a self that can experience something be it burnt hand or burnt toast :) .

I would say many can be in-between states where one is not fully present in the physical experience and is likened to having one foot in one reality and the other foot in another reality but for those that are present with both feet in the physical experience then suggesting there is no self is kind of being in denial or something like that . Some also say that they don't exist etc etc, and yet they what they are is still present saying that they don't exist, which is a bit weird :) but each to their own in regards to how they perceive themselves .

x daz x

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Humanb

I received my 2nd teaching on emptiness today at my local Buddhist temple.
As with most teachings, you often need to hear them several times before you really gain true wisdom.

While i understood the teachings and realized how true they were, i was still slightly confused about how it all fits together.

We did a meditation in which we attempted to find ourself and we couldn't find ourself, i'm not the body and i'm not the mind either, the conclusion was that we are nothing at all. So i understood this part, but i do not understand how suffering can cease to exist for somebody who has realized there is no self... I've realized that the consciousness can alter reality, but i can't consciously alter reality just because of a realization.

It seems too much like a conceptual understanding...

"I'm in pain, wait no.. There is no me to be in pain."

If i burnt my hand on a kettle right now with the realization that there is no self, i would perceive pain, therefore the suffering hasn't ceased to exist because that unpleasant sensation is still existent.

Also, i confronted a monk about my meditations on emptiness and how my body and external world dissipated when i achieved good focus and apparently this meditation isn't beneficial at all and this isn't emptiness.
This actually made me feel pretty bad because this is a meditation i had been practicing for most of my spiritual journey and to be told it isn't beneficial to me or others is like ripping the path beneath my feet.

I love Buddhism because it is profound and i know deep down it is truth, but i thought i was beginning to understand it. Now i just have no idea what i'm doing, i feel lost..

I think the intellectual way of thinking there is no self is often used as a denial strategy, like a person is depressed and says to themself, there is depression but it's not happening to me because there is no self. In my view, if the kettle burns then it is what it is. I don't say there is no kettle and there is no me and it's all an illusion. I swear like &*%#%^ and run some cold water over it.

Of course you will find many people who disregard your meditation. It really a travesty. I'd really prefer to talk about your own meditation.

[Humanb]

The reason I am confused is because I have experienced nothingness in my meditations and I believed this was the emptiness that Buddha taught about. So my understanding of emptiness was that once a human realised emptiness all the time he wouldn't perceive anything at all. But this is somthing a fellow Buddhist said I may be understanding wrong, he said that emptiness and nothingness are not the same thing. The monk in the session said that we are not the body nor the mind we are nothing at all... So obviously you can see how I'm confused because there obviously wouldn't be suffering if one didn't perceive anything at all.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Humanb

The reason I am confused is because I have experienced nothingness in my meditations and I believed this was the emptiness that Buddha taught about. So my understanding of emptiness was that once a human realised emptiness all the time he wouldn't perceive anything at all. But this is somthing a fellow Buddhist said I may be understanding wrong, he said that emptiness and nothingness are not the same thing. The monk in the session said that we are not the body nor the mind we are nothing at all... So obviously you can see how I'm confused because there obviously wouldn't be suffering if one didn't perceive anything at all.

Ok, so the monk said this and that, but it seems no one inquired about your way of practicing or takes any interest in it, but rather, they give you the impression that it's useless. The kettle is hot and it burns. I suggest perhaps if the monk touched the hot kettle, in that moment he was burnt, he would forget all about self and no self and be mostly preoccupied with his hurting hand.

[SpiritCarrier]

Originally Posted by Humanb

The reason I am confused is because I have experienced nothingness in my meditations and I believed this was the emptiness that Buddha taught about. So my understanding of emptiness was that once a human realised emptiness all the time he wouldn't perceive anything at all. But this is somthing a fellow Buddhist said I may be understanding wrong, he said that emptiness and nothingness are not the same thing. The monk in the session said that we are not the body nor the mind we are nothing at all... So obviously you can see how I'm confused because there obviously wouldn't be suffering if one didn't perceive anything at all.

I believe the missing part here is that you are confusing the physical body with the spiritual body. The spiritual body can not perceive pain because it has no physical form to feel with. The physical body which you exist in has a form which perceives pain and thus when you touch the hot kettle your physical hand is burned.

The spiritual body is that part which exist inside, it is that part of you that can experience the nothingness, the emptiness. Your physical body, no matter how hard you may try, will always exist in time and space. However your spiritual body does not have to exist in time and space so it can experience those things.

You have to first understand that your physical body is merely a corporal vessel that your spirit exist within for a short time on this plane of existence. Once that is understood the teaching of emptiness becomes clearer.

Also, i confronted a monk about my meditations on emptiness and how my body and external world dissipated when i achieved good focus and apparently this meditation isn't beneficial at all and this isn't emptiness.

I do not believe the monk clearly understood your comments or he would not have said this. Perhaps he was trying to make you understand that you were not clearly getting the point of the spiritual body, and that was what made your meditation not beneficial. Experiencing the spirit apart from the body is what you described, and that is very beneficial. But not understanding that is what you experienced, lessens the experience making it not so beneficial. I hope that makes a little more sense to you.

Keep up the good work and never let anyone devalue your efforts to become more spiritual. All work is good and beneficial.

I hope this is helpful. Enjoy your journey.

Peace and Light,
SC

[Humanb]

Originally Posted by SpiritCarrier

I believe the missing part here is that you are confusing the physical body with the spiritual body. The spiritual body can not perceive pain because it has no physical form to feel with. The physical body which you exist in has a form which perceives pain and thus when you touch the hot kettle your physical hand is burned.

The spiritual body is that part which exist inside, it is that part of you that can experience the nothingness, the emptiness. Your physical body, no matter how hard you may try, will always exist in time and space. However your spiritual body does not have to exist in time and space so it can experience those things.

You have to first understand that your physical body is merely a corporal vessel that your spirit exist within for a short time on this plane of existence. Once that is understood the teaching of emptiness becomes clearer.



I do not believe the monk clearly understood your comments or he would not have said this. Perhaps he was trying to make you understand that you were not clearly getting the point of the spiritual body, and that was what made your meditation not beneficial. Experiencing the spirit apart from the body is what you described, and that is very beneficial. But not understanding that is what you experienced, lessens the experience making it not so beneficial. I hope that makes a little more sense to you.

Keep up the good work and never let anyone devalue your efforts to become more spiritual. All work is good and beneficial.

I hope this is helpful. Enjoy your journey.

Peace and Light,
SC

Thanks for the reply!

I understand that i'm neither the body or mind because i can't find myself, the physical body and mind seems to be only a collection of non-self.

But what about the spirit? All things are the spirit, the consciousness, the awareness ect.. but these names which mean the same thing if i'm correct are comprised of absolutely nothing at all?

The thing i don't get is, how can you distance yourself from your physical body with realizations? where do you end up if you are fully realized, do you forever rest as the true form of self?

So many questions, i'm sorry!!

[kkfern]

human be . hahah kind of how yoda would talk

emptiness. for me it is like exiting ego. loosing your personal self so you can merge with the all. merging with spirit and getting into the flow of spirit. you then loose suffering because you understand more. there is a difference between suffering and sacrifice or just plain work. it can be looked at as suffering because i have to go to work for 8 hours a day. but then if you understand that you go to work to provide for your family, you gladly do it.

you are right burning your hand does hurt. eventually you will learn not to do the things that bring pain. so you understand it is the temporary that brings the pain and the lesson that gives you understanding.

the last part about the two feet where they are. you already have the answer. if you had told an Eskimo about the tropical zone, he would not have understood or believed. if you told someone living in the tropical zone about snow, they would not really believe. each to their own. but now, each also know the other is telling the truth.

kk

[SaintMatthew]

I just experienced a very very joyful pleasant suffering like I have not experienced before...EVER!