question about symbols/rituals/stuff

Sorry about the rubbish title, I didn't know how to condense my question, in fact I am unsure that I can even word it long form... here goes.

So, when I first came to paganism I learnt that there was a need for ritual and symbolism. As I continued to learn I was taught that there was no need for it, that it is all just stuff to help focus.

Fine....

When I started studying on my lightworker path I was taught that humanity had moved beyond the need for rituals as we are much more able to access the energy to do healing and manifestation (sounds a bit like spell work that)...

Cool....

So, so far it appears that there really is no need for ritual or symbolism any more. Nice....

But... as I have moved on in the lightworker stuff I have learnt that symbols can have actual power. For instance, I was given a symbol that I could use to do distance healing and to send energy through.

Reiki uses specific symbols to "colour" the reiki.

There are artists like Brian De Flores and Shona Winters who are producing art that contains healing energy.

I also heard from a guy who I admire who was using posture to bring about healing....... he is now working purely with sound.

All this implies that there is a purpose to symbolism and ritual. Sound and light hold vibrations, shape the sound and light and you shape the vibration.

Is it possible that as a noob you learn to use these things to help you focus, then at the next level you learn to not need the tools and that focus is all you need to do basic stuff.... but when you move beyond this you find that there are symbols and ritual movements that do have an energetic effect?

Is this why the high magic bunch still use these things???

[norseman]

If we agree that all lightwork/spell work is based on energy from the natural source, and that all LW/SW obeys natural laws, then somewhere along the line, an addition of energy is required.
Cut to the basics, LW/SW is channeled natural energy. High Ritual magic is "going against the flow" but the ritual itself/symbols/sigils have energy invested and provide a channel for the energy to flow through. Whereas Low Magic - Earth magic, Hedge Witchery - requires the direct co-operation of the source. In my viewpoint, Mother Earth acts in partnership and so there is no need for "special" rituals or symbols. Just a personal opinion but it works for me. [ Try spellworking on a ley line, you might be very surprised !]
So, Symbols and sigils are like plugging in an extra battery, a shorthand convention so to speak.
Of course, as ever, I could just be an unfrocked scientist who wanders the moors and shouts at the sheep

Originally Posted by norseman

Of course, as ever, I could just be an unfrocked scientist who wanders the moors and shouts at the sheep

Love it!!!!!!

LOL norseman......

Tilla - Pagansim is anything other then monotheism. It isnt one strict tradition, but a huge group of old and new ones, and even revived ones.

Generaly speaking all worship deals with some sort of worship,ceremony and or items. There arent to many ways around it.

That being said, we have to realize that its your personal choice. IF you choose to follow a path that uses symbols and the like, good for you. IF you choose to follow a path without it, good for you!

Try to loose the focus of what your "supposed to do", and do what feels right.

The title is fine.

There are many ways to encourage healing. It is ALL working w/ energy. As we all have our natural gateways about how we initially access this it is very useful to have many doing all types of healing procedures or artwork to make this accessible to everyone. Some people will respond to color, some to sound, & some to the suggestion that powerful symbols are doing something that they can’t.

Symbols are used by the ‘high magic bunch‘ in the exact same way they are for others, to focus & convince others unseen energy is REAL. It is currently trendy to be LWs rather than witches, sorcerers, shamans, or priests/priestesses (as in the ancient religions). The name really is irrelevant. They are all energy workers. Some more adept than others.

Those who place their self in an elite category of energy workers are a real gag & relics of the past when temple elitists sects held this information waaaaay too closely. Much valuable information was lost because it was too closely guarded. Use the utmost discernment w/ this group as they typically know much less than they advertise.

Authentic energy workers don’t seek to be the modern equivalent of the ancient energy elitists, separately ensconced in the temple. They appreciate that ALL are on the same journey a precious few steps apart, functioning as wayshowers to others not as far along, appreciating they the more they learn the more they realize they have to learn. They increasingly function as teachers, willing to widely disseminate information to others instead of maintaining a reliant population.

They view that KNOWing about this healing energy is our right, not something to be known only by a select few or sold expensively. Buying it for $$$$ doesn’t make an energy system or the person using it more valid or powerful. It just means that one handed over allot of cash. A significant cash transfer may serve the purpose of convincing one that they have been bestowed some sort of power they didn’t have before, but one can use their focused intent & personal conviction to access this Universal energy w/o handing over a single cent. Many have.

Everyone doing energy work whether personally or professionally should use what works for them. When working w/ patient/clients symbols, etc. may be useful to help convince the client even if the energy worker knows they are superfluous. These symbols make it real. As tones or sounds have a real frequency these are of particular interest. The Universe is said to be ordered w/ tones & sacred geometry. Spiritual artwork helps focus as mandalas & often uses sacred geometry.

Energy work isn’t magic. It is abilities that some have learned to access by mastering their energies. All can do this. Our ‘psychic’ abilities are are innate, but largely dormant abilities that we can all access.

Originally Posted by Time

LOL norseman......

Tilla - Pagansim is anything other then monotheism. It isnt one strict tradition, but a huge group of old and new ones, and even revived ones.

Generaly speaking all worship deals with some sort of worship,ceremony and or items. There arent to many ways around it.

That being said, we have to realize that its your personal choice. IF you choose to follow a path that uses symbols and the like, good for you. IF you choose to follow a path without it, good for you!

Try to loose the focus of what your "supposed to do", and do what feels right.

#sigh#Time, we have done the whole "what pagan means" to death.... there is no need to do that here too is there? I call myself pagan, what you read into that is up to you and based on your own understanding. Your choice.

There is no "should" in my question... I am asking about the possibility of a universal truth rather than me believing what a person has told me.

Im not trying to reiterate or anything dude. More or less giving background information of the following statements. What i wrote was in response to your original post here, not in reference to any other thread we may have exchanged opinions.

I didnt quote "supposed to do" because you said it, only because most people seem to thinkj theres tihngs we have to do. For instance you mentioned that religious wise, you are told to work with symbols, then you mentioned that to be a light worker, you have to escape from symbols.... Thats only what was said in quotations meant, not as in you said it.

My main point is ( and I hoped youd get it), was that it doesnt matter what something says. IF you feel like working with symbols, who is anyone else to tell you other wise? What is any book or religion to say what is acceptable or not? Hell, who is anyone here to say anything either, me included? Its your life, your paradigm... dont let some book tell you what is needed or not in YOUR life.

Originally Posted by Time

Im not trying to reiterate or anything dude. More or less giving background information of the following statements. What i wrote was in response to your original post here, not in reference to any other thread we may have exchanged opinions.

I didnt quote "supposed to do" because you said it, only because most people seem to thinkj theres tihngs we have to do. For instance you mentioned that religious wise, you are told to work with symbols, then you mentioned that to be a light worker, you have to escape from symbols.... Thats only what was said in quotations meant, not as in you said it.

My main point is ( and I hoped youd get it), was that it doesnt matter what something says. IF you feel like working with symbols, who is anyone else to tell you other wise? What is any book or religion to say what is acceptable or not? Hell, who is anyone here to say anything either, me included? Its your life, your paradigm... dont let some book tell you what is needed or not in YOUR life.

Hey there

No worries, just felt like we had been here before

hmmmm.... there is no book telling me what i should or shouldn't do, simply a coming together of things I have observed over time, the way other people work, and I guess I am seeing a theme. These people are successful in what they do and it makes me wonder whether there is a universal truth here.

I guess I am seeing it as the possibility of a series of boxes. We start off in the box where there is a need to use ritual etc. My LW lessons taught me to look outside that box and realise that intent was the important bit... I'm wondering if there is another "outside the box" where symbols/vibrations are used as they hold a universal truth.

For instance, Brian De Flores chanells energetic art. His art holds a vibration. Shona Winters created a set of cards that hold pictures that can be used to balance chakras.

I have a set of cards that are photographs of crystals, it is said the cards carry the energy of the crystal.

Then there is Mr Emoto's work on the vibratition of words, sounds and text. He has shown that if you write a word on a piece of paper then stand a glass of water on that paper, the word affects the shape of the ice crystal the water makes under specific circumstances.

These things hint to me that there is a universal truth here saying that something like a written word can hold a vibration. A written word is only a symbol in a form that many can read.

So, back in the day when the "high magic guys" were using symbols, did they know something that we have chosen to ignore???

I have a sneaking suspicion that the "high magic guys" that are around now won't tell us......

Ahhh thats the thing. THeres only a certain number of shapes that life on this planet can take. Of course the number is really high LOL but never the less, there is a limit.

Things like the "flower of life", and other sacred geometry shapes are said to hold all of the universes shapes in the one "simple"design. So in essence its its own universe, in the regard it holds everything in it in a sence.

Theres one thing I can say, is that they had a greater perception of shapes, and patterns in the old world, which most of us have fogotten due to our seperation of nature. Nature is shapes and patterns, just liek our very structure of atoms, and cells are patterns and shapes. All pagan (in general :P) traditions were nature based, which includes astronomy.astrology, some form of divination ( most of the old stuff was done using animal parts, such as the spleen).

They knew every tree and plant in the forest, and animal, knew what it did for them and the nature around it, and many of them actualy practiced horticulture techniques thousands of years before anyone in the western world tried.

These things are deeply ingrained in our genes and psyche. Hunting and gathering, horticulture ( as opposed to agriculture), being around trees, savannah land scapes ( the typical yard with grass a few plants strewn about and a large tree, is a simulated savannah enviroment). Why else would any of us hunt, camp, fish or garden?

Im seeing a continuing trend of people growing their own food, and starting to return to nature more, and respect it. Our synthetic lives just isnt cutting it anymore.

In that type of culture, and natural pattern or shape will come into focus because you are immersed in exactly the same situation as the old ways: Nature at its purest....

Originally Posted by tilia

Sorry about the rubbish title, I didn't know how to condense my question, in fact I am unsure that I can even word it long form... here goes.

So, when I first came to paganism I learnt that there was a need for ritual and symbolism. As I continued to learn I was taught that there was no need for it, that it is all just stuff to help focus.

Fine....

When I started studying on my lightworker path I was taught that humanity had moved beyond the need for rituals as we are much more able to access the energy to do healing and manifestation (sounds a bit like spell work that)...

Cool....

So, so far it appears that there really is no need for ritual or symbolism any more. Nice....

But... as I have moved on in the lightworker stuff I have learnt that symbols can have actual power. For instance, I was given a symbol that I could use to do distance healing and to send energy through.

Reiki uses specific symbols to "colour" the reiki.

There are artists like Brian De Flores and Shona Winters who are producing art that contains healing energy.

I also heard from a guy who I admire who was using posture to bring about healing....... he is now working purely with sound.

All this implies that there is a purpose to symbolism and ritual. Sound and light hold vibrations, shape the sound and light and you shape the vibration.

Is it possible that as a noob you learn to use these things to help you focus, then at the next level you learn to not need the tools and that focus is all you need to do basic stuff.... but when you move beyond this you find that there are symbols and ritual movements that do have an energetic effect?

Is this why the high magic bunch still use these things???

I'll answer using my old basic familiarity with ceremonial magic(k): symbol and ritual serve to cement energy/intention/magic/will/whatever into more tangible terms, performing an elaborate ritual with tons of preparation, and pouring your heart and soul into it has a far more profound effect upon the mind then just energy work or what have you. The images, and motions, the words and implements act like a point of focus that allows us to subconsciously realize "oh hey, this is real!"; along with reinforcing the goal you had to begin with.

But, from my understandin' a person can become adept enough to use only minimal ritual gestures, etc. to get their result. Although everyone I talked to and every book I've read make it clear that it's not something everyone can do, nor is it necessarily "better", in and of itself.

Or at least I hope that's how it goes for some people other than me