Do we have free will?

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Busby

There is not the slightest evidence that a 'law of karma' exists.

Well, that's a piece o'cake.
1. Steal a couple things today or for a few days...wait.
2. Be super overflowingly nice to strangers or friends and neighbors for a couple days or more....wait.
It's like a boomerang.

[hazada guess]

Do we have free will?

Does anybody have free will?

I suppose we are responsible for our own actions. Judging by how those actions pan out good or bad, I suppose that's where we get Karma.
IMO we are led by a guide or guides, if we veer to much off track they may help us or may not to teach us lessons.
As far as if we reincarnate to work off karma, that's a different ball game of which I have no idea.

[eezi-ulgen]

I've noticed I'm kinda like a puppy on leash walked by his Master.

[sky]

Originally Posted by eezi-ulgen

I've noticed I'm kinda like a puppy on leash walked by his Master.

But you do choose if to bark or not

[eezi-ulgen]

Originally Posted by sky

But you do choose if to bark or not

I'm free to do all the things a puppy would or could do on a leash..

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

So what’s the take on free will then? Does it exist or not and if not, what about the law of karma?

I suggest that we as incarnated humans have limited free will. The extent of our free will reflects the development of our consciousness.

Everyday life presents us with choices, and the choices we make produce certain consequences. For the average human these choices are the choices of free will, but such free will is very limited. Our choices will be influenced by personality tendencies, the human tendency to self-interest, and the limitations of our understanding. We then have to deal with the consequences of our choices, usually resulting in further choices being made resulting in further consequences. And so on. This is all part of our learning.

When we consciously tread the spiritual path then we face different choices. Do we follow the guidance of the Soul or do we follow the habitual patterns of personality? Gradually the personality becomes aligned with Soul purpose and the will of the personality surrenders to the Will of the Soul. Again, this is all part of our learning.

But free will has its limits. There are greater forces at play on this planet, and these greater forces overtake the element of free will for individual humans. For example, natural disasters, warfare, pandemics. We could say that this is karma working out on a greater scale. We are simply swept along by events. While we may still make choices in response to such events, we may have very few options available to us.

And perhaps the greatest limitation to our free will are the limitations of the physical body. The body ages, it may get sick, it will certainly die. No amount of free will can prevent this happening.

Of course, all of this presupposes that everything is not already predestined. But if everything is predestined then that includes this response and there is nothing I can do to change it.

Peace

[kris]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

So what’s the take on free will then? Does it exist or not and if not, what about the law of karma?

I will start with a quote from Bhagvadgītā

"Karmanyevādikāraste mā phaleṣu kadācana "

You have the power to act. But you do not have the power to determine the consequences of your action.

In effect, you have free will. But you and your actions are subject to the laws of the universe or dharma.

That's my take.

[Unseeking Seeker]

Let us look at this question by probing the inquiry from another angle:

Being what we always were and are, the eternal self-existent light of Self, in ineffable peace, feeling complete, renewing itself within itself, with no doing or going or coming to be done ~ a singularity, which we may metaphorically call heaven, as of choiceless choice, there is a descent, so to say, into duality, wherein remembrance of our true Self is soon forgotten, as we enter hypnotic trance in a form constituted of matter belonging to that realm, in our case here, from earth, water, fire, air and ether.

The state of our being in trance, where we believe ourselves to be only mind-body, requires automatically for us to preserve its well being. Thus, the ego or let us say, a temporary identity comes into being. Not only this, since this so called choiceless choice of Self to descend thus has replayed several times, in many lives, there is a residue or what is called in Hinduism ‘Samskaras’, loosely translated as tendencies borne of instincts nurtured.

Given this preamble, we operate in trance by instinct but have been thrown a lifeline of discernment, wherein, at least in the waking state of slowed down vibrations, we can employ. Dream and deep sleep state are subtler frontiers to harmonise at a later point. So, we use the power to discern, whereupon we discover that there are two of us in here, the false self and the true Self.

The aspect of ourself we choose to prioritise, this choice is based on discernment, which in turn depends upon recognition, validated by life experiences, wherein we, exhausted in pursuit of ephemeral objects (material and mental), we then employ free will to go in within to find out who we actually are. But it is not cut and dry. There is oscillation borne of past momentum. Hence the need to invite grace by surrender, keeping heart pure, the word pure meaning childlike innocence, receptive, trusting and acceptant.

Looking at it this way, it would suggest that karma or cause and effect is basically nothing other than playing out of vibrations we have chosen (in ignorance) to create, so that we may experience all aspects of our actions, spherically. There is no judgment, only learning.

One question yet remains: what triggers the choiceless choice of identity-less Self in singularity to descend into duality? There is then, it seems, another veil to be pierced, even in that superlative state of being-ness.

[Unseeking Seeker]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Of course, all of this presupposes that everything is not already predestined. But if everything is predestined then that includes this response and there is nothing I can do to change it.

In my view, life as we experience it, in linear time, has already been impulsed but it is like a template, a module, awaiting our response. Our response then, is what we may call free will. But to do so, we must become conscious first, as Eckhart Tolle has said in his video I posted a while back #8.

The universe is constantly urging us to wake up. Some wake up faster, others prefer to sleep longer. Either which ways, when the threshold of our idiocy or stupor is reached, we freeze, poised in the gap of no-thingness and if we are able to stretch stillness awhile, the false identity dies and who we always were and are, comes into focus, in active cognition.

[Unseeking Seeker]

@ kris #17 ~ we must remember however, that Arjuna, based on his ego-response, did not wish to fight against his kith and kin. It is only when Krishna revealed the truth ~ that, the Kauravas (the foe) was already dead or would be dead with or without Arjuna and when Krishna showed Arjuna his ‘Vishwarupa’ or all encompassing luminous form, that Arjuna’s ignorance was removed.

Acting in ignorance vs acting out of higher awareness ~ that made all the difference.

About detachment from final outcome, since the doer is not the entity (us) there should be egoless action, as of divine will through us as a conduit, a vehicle available in this density. Seeking an imagined outcome, as preferred by the entity is a desire, stemming from ignorance.