Bodhisattva Vows - Page 5

The Cobbler's Apprentice · #41 22-07-2021, 10:04 AM

I was reading a book by David Bentley-Hart, a Christian Eastern Orthodox theologian. It argued the case for Universalism, obviously from the Christian perspective. He made mention of the Bodhisattvas and their vows, contrasting this with certain Christian stories/outlooks that seemed not to offer the same degree of compassion.

Mr Hart mentioned the vow not to enter nirvana until all had entered, of their willingness to enter themselves into the darkest Buddhist hells "in pursuit of the lost". He ended his short summary of their willingness to share such suffering with the following, worth quoting:-

"But then, in fact, in a marvelous and radiant inversion of all expectations, it turns out that such compassion is itself already the highest liberation and beatitude, and that, seen in its light, the difference between Samsara and Nirvana simply vanishes."

As I see it, this also relates to the "no merit" thread. Concern for others simply replaces self-concern and with it any thought of merit. Also, for me, it speaks of a "spirituality" that is more than narcissistic grooming, and is in no danger of any betrayal of this world for any imagined "other".

BigJohn · #42 22-07-2021, 12:46 PM

Your comment resonates very much with Kwan Yin.

BigJohn · #43 22-07-2021, 12:49 PM

Thanks for mentioning about the deepest Buddhist Hells.

Most people do not realize that Buddhist believe in Hell.

I used to go to a certain Buddhist Temple that had a huge mural of the various Buddhist Hells and Heavens.

ayar415 · #44 22-07-2021, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Thanks for mentioning about the deepest Buddhist Hells.
Most people do not realize that Buddhist believe in Hell.
I used to go to a certain Buddhist Temple that had a huge mural of the various Buddhist Hells and Heavens.

Buddhist Hells are symbolisms representing human suffering in Earthly Hells which doesn't seem to faze us at all. All those mural depictions don't come close to the killing fields and human torture of WW1 and WW2.

And we all seem immune to the impending horrors of WW3, samples of which were doled out at Hirsohima and Nagasaki. Bring it on, we are tough cookies.

sky · #45 22-07-2021, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayar415

Buddhist Hells are symbolisms representing human suffering in Earthly Hells which doesn't seem to faze us at all.

Heaven and Hell in Buddhism are both states of mind which we create ourselves, some more than other's.
Your reference to 'War' is a Perfect example of Hell created by Humans....

ayar415 · #46 22-07-2021, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice

As I see it, this also relates to the "no merit" thread. Concern for others simply replaces self-concern and with it any thought of merit. Also, for me, it speaks of a "spirituality" that is more than narcissistic grooming, and is in no danger of any betrayal of this world for any imagined "other".

Is "concern for others" a practice of selflessness? Putting others before self.

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13 KJV).

That was Jesus' commandment, that we love one another as He had loved us. This is quite succinct compared to the pathless path of zen. So, why do you prefer Pure Land?

ayar415 · #47 22-07-2021, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sky123

Heaven and Hell in Buddhism are both states of mind which we create ourselves, some more than other's.
Your reference to 'War' is a Perfect example of Hell created by Humans....

You are making a distinction between mind-made Hell and human-made Hell. The former is mental while the latter is material (and affects the mind also).

Do you think that we humans can stop creating Hell on Earth? If we can, we won't need Buddhism for practicing compassion or Christianity to practice love.

BigJohn · #48 22-07-2021, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sky123

Heaven and Hell in Buddhism are both states of mind which we create ourselves, some more than other's.
Your reference to 'War' is a Perfect example of Hell created by Humans....

To claim Heaven and Hell are states of mind diminishes or voids the Heaven where the Buddha of the Future, Maitreya, resides.

ayar415 · #49 22-07-2021, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn

To claim Heaven and Hell are states of mind diminishes or voids the Heaven where the Buddha of the Future, Maitreya, resides.

Brilliant observation, BigJohn.

This reminds me of my days in corporate USA. Outside consultants were brought in, periodically, to review in-house operation management methods. Boy, did they open our eyes to truths we took for granted.

The Cobbler's Apprentice · #50 22-07-2021, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayar415

Is "concern for others" a practice of selflessness? Putting others before self.

Various commentaries on the Mahayana texts continually make the point that though there are in the ultimate sense no others, yet a bodhisattva vows to save them. Make of that what you will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayar415

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13 KJV).

That was Jesus' commandment, that we love one another as He had loved us. This is quite succinct compared to the pathless path of zen. So, why do you prefer Pure Land?

Well, Bob Dylan sings:- "Gonna forget about myself for a while, gonna go out and see what others need" (lines from "Thunder on the Mountain") That's pretty hip. How about worshipping Bob?

I'm not so sure about a pathless zen. Dogen speaks of the circle of the way.

But whatever, disembodied texts are fairly "pathless". We tend to put a path to them. Some Christians seem to relate "friends" to only fellow Christians, leaving the goats to fend for themselves. Personally I find Pure Land practical. An autobiography would be helpful but I really haven't the time, not to mention Pure Lands fundamentally non-dual "ground".