Nonduality and "The Guru".

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by revolver

We are the Source, or Consciousness, the mind body organism arises from Consciousness as a wave arises from the ocean, the wave is the ocean believing itself to be separate from the ocean, can you see where I am coming from ?.

Mm. ......

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by sentient

I wrote about it in this post:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...6&postcount=36
Except I am not a devout Christian.

A similar scenario:
You hear the drum, it shifts you - the blood red markings on the white background of the drum totally alert you - you hear the bells.

Shock awakening. Surrender.

The Thunderbird Force-field comes upon you.

You Die. (You enter the Thunderbird’s belly).

When the Force-field ****s you back into your body, when you re-awake or come to, you are energetically re-arranged.

Ahh OK I see what you are saying

In my upbringing, such an experience is not called the Great Death, as far as I am aware {I think they do have a term for it but whatever}.

I see the Great Death as when one's karma unravels completely and the person is born anew - literally innocence.

Granted, we have to use different words to express it especially coming from different backgrounds.

In my upbringing, it is cognized that there are many different experiences, including of Pure Unadultered Oneness (for lack of a better term for now), but if it comes and goes, it's not yet It.

Thanks for your time,

BT

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Iamit

From what you have said I understand your point of view in terms of how you define what is sought. I'm only interested in mutual understanding not a contest.

Do you understand why it makes no difference from the point of view described in my previous post? If not what is it you dont understand and i will try and clarify further.

Hi Iamit,

I don't believe it is a contest either

Yes I understand your pov I just very much disagree.

You can't get beyond thoughts with another thought.

Thinking everything is oneness is not a realization nor will it move you farther along the path.

For me the progression has been along these lines.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

A friend of mine provided this and I thought I would share.

While I can provide mappings to other traditions/frameworks for those who have questions, the descriptions are an attempt to be traditionless. Additionally, for any of those that have the capacity/interest, all such layers have the potential to be demonstrated. For those who think of it in mind terms, it is easiest to think of as local mind is a subset of universal/shared mind. They are also not necessarily linear in level.



level zero - this is not really a level. It could also be called the primordial. Outside or beyond universal mind.



level 1 - base manifest existence. All physical stuff.

level 2 - base emotions. Things like anger and fear are the driving nature of this level of local mind.

level 3 - Individual sense of self. Think of it as the level of most egotistical people. 90% of humans.

level 4 - Opening of heart. This is a huge step and what many consider awakening. It is the fundamental shift of moving from being focused on your individual needs to truly caring about others. A good example is a truly loving parent.

level 5 - Subconscious connection to others and your local surroundings. It this level one tends to feel and sense energy of beyond their local body. But the conscious mind does not yet know how to distinguish between what is outside, and what is energy spilling over and creating images or emotions that are experienced in the (local) mind.

level 6 - Huge step as one begins to actually see and consciously notice what you could call universal mind/universe. Some call this open 3rd eye stuff. Beginning of true Astral level activity. But it is still based in the local mind view of sense of self.

level 7 - Classically called the open crown, this is when you start to get cracks in the local mind version of sense of self. One starts to notice/touch the divine/light. Anyone who reaches this stage will often experience a divine being (or guru) to help them cross over into the light/divine. No fear of death at this stage.

level 8 - Light/Divine with out differentiation. Rather than a linear level, it is much more like a quantum leap. The local bubble of mind/sense of self has been cracked. Direct access to universal layer, but no ability to differentiate. You feel you are one with everyone, but can't really access or help on individual basis. It is like "being" rather than "seeing". This is also called the "soul" level by many, and the person "radiates" light.

level 9 - Light with beginning differentiation. You are one with all humans and begin to integrate with plants and animals. Still mostly local.

level 10 - Expansion has continued to more planetary and includes inanimate objects. Can directly access all beings within your sphere of being to various degrees of refinement.

level 11 - Beingness has expanded across what people call different dimensions. Possible to create and play with pocket universes and have astral level people visit them.

level 12 - boundary of what people call time and space. At this level, you can perceive forwards or backwards in time. Also, the historical limit of physical form/manifestation for maintaining human form.

level 13 - at this level there is no longer and sense of male and female at a human level. Beginning of what some traditions call the "god realms".

level 14-16 - Higher form realms, nothing really easy to describe. Many divine beings or gods reside there.

level 17 and above - formless realms of potential. Can find some higher immortals and divine beings residing there.


Any thoughts or questions?

[sky]

Quote jonesboy 'Thinking everything is oneness is not a realization nor will it move you farther along the path.'

Do you mean yourself in the ' you ' ?
As you cannot speak for all I presume it does.....

[sentient]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Ahh OK I see what you are saying

In my upbringing, such an experience is not called the Great Death, as far as I am aware {I think they do have a term for it but whatever}.

I see the Great Death as when one's karma unravels completely and the person is born anew - literally innocence.

Granted, we have to use different words to express it especially coming from different backgrounds.

In my upbringing, it is cognized that there are many different experiences, including of Pure Unadultered Oneness (for lack of a better term for now), but if it comes and goes, it's not yet It.

Thanks for your time,

BT

I have got no idea what the “Great Death” might be.

With “death” I meant awakening, but like in two parts.
The jolt/shock makes you aware, conscious of the Source.
The other (the “death” part) connects you to your awakening Energetically.

People often talk about energy as "Kundalini rising", but I do not understand that nor can I therefore relate to it.
I only relate to "Spirit descent" through Crown Chakra, and that is felt/experienced as "death".

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Hi Iamit,

I don't believe it is a contest either

Yes I understand your pov I just very much disagree.

You can't get beyond thoughts with another thought.

Thinking everything is oneness is not a realization nor will it move you farther along the path.

For me the progression has been along these lines.

Can you see why whether it is a thought or not is irrelevant? Both the state of thinking or not thinking are Oneness manifest. Neither one can connect you more than the other. The same applies to getting further along this or that path or whether any of this is realized or not. Both, and all states are already Oneness manifest. So getting to your destination is no more connected to not embarking at all.

This applies if connection is what is sought by the seeker which I doubt would be enough to be regarded as enlightenment by most. If connection is not the concern, then none of this is relevant for the seeker.

For connection, getting beyond thought is irrelevant. can you see why that is so?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Can you see why whether it is a thought or not is irrelevant? Both the state of thinking or not thinking are Oneness manifest. Neither one can connect you more than the other. The same applies to getting further along this or that path or whether any of this is realized or not. Both, and all states are already Oneness manifest. So getting to your destination is no more connected to not embarking at all.

This applies if connection is what is sought by the seeker which I doubt would be enough to be regarded as enlightenment by most. If connection is not the concern, then none of this is relevant for the seeker.

For connection, getting beyond thought is irrelevant. can you see why that is so?

Can't you see just by reality of what is going on in your life and all around you that your theory is wrong?

Of course it matters if it is realized or not. If you haven't realized it, all it is, is a day dream.

You are trying to talk like someone on top of the mountain, who has realized it all and says the path is just being, non doing. That is true but the depth to get to that point, that realization is beyond the concept of you as a person.

Everything has the same essence but are you aware of that essence? Can you look within and be the person next to you? The plant, or become one with Jesus and share that grace with another?

That is the realization of, it is not an everything is perfect we are all oneness so just stop doing anything because you are already oneness.

It is the realization that all traditions help one achieve.

Your path is do nothing and because you do nothing, nothing will ever change.

Which is really sad because amazing, life changing things do happen along the path to that realization and you are missing all of it.

[Shivani Devi]

Let me chip in here with my 10 cents.

There is an experience which comes through the awareness that is related to knowledge (jnana) in which the concepts of 'self' and 'other' are perceived as a 'connection' or 'oneness' and the manifestation is akin to the attainment of Savikalpa Samadhi...the 'mind' is still there and the whole awareness is still present.

This is only the penultimate state, but it is not wrong/right in any way...it is merely an incomplete transition.

Then, there is the experience in which all awareness is totally lost with the absorption (laya) into pure consciousness (chit) and there is no more philosophical speculation of mind as to 'connection' or 'unity' because for that to happen, the duality of existence must represent in the first place...it is the point of no more words, nothing occupies the mental sphere and everything manifests and dissolves into the heart of creation simultaneously and this is the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

There is a lot I would like to say in this forum sometimes, but I can't put it into words...I try, but it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when I do. =/

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Let me chip in here with my 10 cents.

There is an experience which comes through the awareness that is related to knowledge (jnana) in which the concepts of 'self' and 'other' are perceived as a 'connection' or 'oneness' and the manifestation is akin to the attainment of Savikalpa Samadhi...the 'mind' is still there and the whole awareness is still present.

This is only the penultimate state, but it is not wrong/right in any way...it is merely an incomplete transition.

Then, there is the experience in which all awareness is totally lost with the absorption (laya) into pure consciousness (chit) and there is no more philosophical speculation of mind as to 'connection' or 'unity' because for that to happen, the duality of existence must represent in the first place...it is the point of no more words, nothing occupies the mental sphere and everything manifests and dissolves into the heart of creation simultaneously and this is the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

There is a lot I would like to say in this forum sometimes, but I can't put it into words...I try, but it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when I do. =/

Very true but understand that is all about meditation.

An example of how to achieve Nirvikalpa Samadhi is with mindfulness.

Everyone is aware of the meditation practice of mindfulness, of watching ones thoughts. The finer points of mindfulness is that as one is observing it is the ego that is grasping at the observing of a thought.

To move beyond is to not even grasp at the creation of a thought, you don't notice it. It is just like the saying you are the sky and the clouds are your thoughts. The sky doesn't notice the clouds as they are created or as they moves through it.

When on can get to the point of just truly being, the mind not grasping at the creation of a thought or a vision or of anything going on. One is then kinda like transported to being one with the light.

More important than Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the realization in daily life Sahaja Samadhi.

Sahaja Samadhi is like Rigpa, those thoughts have become energy that flows through you. The thoughts can be silent or not, it doesn't matter as one can just reside in that energy which is thoughts and naturally be in the pristine clarity of the present moment.

Those flows one feels is everything and everyone. From here the path continues on because even those flows, feeling them is not being them and as one progresses that being becomes more and more.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

More important than Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the realization in daily life Sahaja Samadhi.

Sahaja Samadhi is like Rigpa, those thoughts have become energy that flows through you. The thoughts can be silent or not, it doesn't matter as one can just reside in that energy which is thoughts and naturally be in the pristine clarity of the present moment.

Exactly! and this is the point at which I find myself.

It is easy to become complacent within their own level of awareness and whilst I have transcended the mind, thought and all philosophical speculation through direct realisation of Brahman, I find myself like the proverbial Himalayan Yogi who is happy to just sit in his cave and meditate until Maha Samadhi is attained.

I sometimes allow myself the luxury of trying to act/behave like an ignorant person who knows no better...and you have been witness to all that, but 'making the bliss 'stick' (as running would say) requires more effort than attaining the bliss in the first place - and it is the origin for all my physical maladies.

Attaining Nirvikalpa Samadhi is one thing...to make the experience effortless, another...but I'm burning off karma and samskaras here...and you know, once the power supply is disconnected from the fan, the blades will keep slowly rotating for some time until they stop.

Yeah, but we both know what is going on...what can 'come through' if I just surrender a lot more to it than I do and not try to assert my own identity in spite of that experience.