Tolstoy, and some thoughts on self-renunciation

Hi, here's some jumbled thoughts, some of it paraphrased from the writings of Tolstoy. If anyone wishes to comment, I'd love to get any feedback.

Before we act we must establish a relationship with world, and have a theory for life, some reason for doing the things that we do. Upon entering rational life, nobody can escape this establishing of some sort of relationship to everything and everyone around him or her. Most people, both “religious” and “scientific”*, organize their lives around a philosophy that we have a right to our lives and should therefore live for our happiness and the happiness of those close to us (friends and family) and, if possible, for the happiness of everyone else too. However, when we try to live for the happiness of ourselves and of those close to us, we find (if we don’t ignore the fact) that the worldly advantages we get can only be obtained by taking away from others. Also we realize that the more worldly advantages we acquire, the less they satisfy us and the more we desire for new ones. And the longer someone lives the more inevitable becomes the approach of death, destroying all possibility of worldly advantages. So this is an irrational way to live. The only way to true happiness and a rational life is through a process of self-renunciation, where you do not live for worldly advantages but for the good of everyone and devote your life to this cause. This is living solely to serve your conscience, as you know through experience and reason that living any other way will ruin true happiness, since you must live conscientiously for your heart to be at rest.

* The only question for true science is to determine how we should live; what should we do in life. Or, how to practically carry out what we have determined is the right thing to do.

[peteyzen]

Hey great first Post Mark, congrats, thought provoking.

I truly hope that your journey allows you to exist as you have described, if it does you will go a long way. In the words (ish) of jermaine jackson to Shilpa Shetty in the big brother house recently,`You know who you are and why your here, don`t forget that and don`t lose your dignity.`
(and we all know what happened to Shilpa, dont we?)

Playing devil's advocate, I need to ask if you're suggesting that we should all live naked in caves since all worldly posessions and desires is wrong? Are you of the opinion that personal ambition and a desire to improve oneself is negative? I'm sure your post was meant to speak of spiritual matters, but as long as we're alive, the physical and spiritual seem to be joined at the hip, wouldn't you think? I'm not discounting what you've posted, just trying to kick start a discussion.

John

Hi tilt, thanks for the response, the desire to improve oneself and the lives of others (materially as well as spiritually) is certainly a "good" type of ambition. The material aspect should however be subserviant to the spiritual aspect. Worldly possesions and desires are only harmful to us when they become agents of injustice or exploitation, or when they take precedence over the spiritual aspect of our nature.

Good reply Mark, I couldn't agree more. Too often folks are in such a rush to find spirituality they don't realize we need to maintain a delicate balance.

John

Greetings..

I am always amused by those that seek to reject "worldly" matters in favor of spiritually.. consider that the universe has conjured this most remarkable "worldly" condition which permits the intangible to experience the tangible physical existence.. that for all of the Universe's efforts to present a physical experience, there are those that choose to diminish its value by renunciation.. rather, i choose to experience Life as a celebration.. to honor the efforts of the Universe..

Regardless of what we can deduce from scientific observation and from extrapolating theories from available evidence.. there is no conclusive proof of sentient life outside our own existence (i don't adhere to that notion, though).. so, i conclude that this physical experience is quite unique and special, even in its isolation from whatever other sentient existences might be out there.. While there may be great benefits to one's spiritual journey through renunciation, they should realize that Life in the physical aspect begs their presence.. that the spiritual development should be brought into the world of physical BEing, to raise the level of physical experience to its next highest manifestation.. and, that is done by DOing.. to "know" is not enough..

I sense that it is unwise to set a condition where the physical is "subservient" to the spiritual.. the time of man, the physical experience, is short.. it seems harsh to subjugate it.. we have eternity to cultivate the spirit through the myriad of experiences and possibilities available in an infinite and eternal Cosmos.. so, given the gift of physical manifestation, i sense that "balance" is appropriate, and.. possibly, that the physical experience should be given a bit of priority, its ability to contribute to the Spirit's evolution should not be underestimated..

As always, this represents only "my" understandings of things..

Be well..

Tzu, I'm not sure what your central point is? I did say "Worldly possesions and desires are only harmful to us when they become agents of injustice or exploitation, or when they take precedence over the spiritual aspect of our nature (in other words, when "things" become more important than people)".

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

Greetings..

I sense that it is unwise to set a condition where the physical is "subservient" to the spiritual.. the time of man, the physical experience, is short.. it seems harsh to subjugate it.. we have eternity to cultivate the spirit through the myriad of experiences and possibilities available in an infinite and eternal Cosmos.. so, given the gift of physical manifestation, i sense that "balance" is appropriate, and.. possibly, that the physical experience should be given a bit of priority, its ability to contribute to the Spirit's evolution should not be underestimated..

As always, this represents only "my" understandings of things..

Be well..

My thinking exactly TzuJanLi. It's my understanding that we need to experince life so that we can learn and evolve spiritually, as well as grow personally. This is how we can heal current as well as past life trauma and issues, and resolve karma. Our physical and spiritual lives are ans should be intwined.

John

Greetings..

Hi Mark: The post wasn't directed toward you, though it may have offered alternative perspectives to some of your assertions.. it only represented my perspective of the issue.. i hope not to offend anyone.. but to share in the spirit of common growth..

Be well..

no worries, I wasn't offended, just a little confused.