Why are you a vegetarian or vegan?

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Hey Debby!

If the slaughter and pain of animals is the problem, then why is it that only humans are hold responsible for this?
Shouldn't we teach the lions how to do it humanely? I mean, they can eat their prey alive!

Of course we are different, we can reason. I would say that minimizing pain is a sound goal, but ''giving it up'' entirely is impossible.

Edit: Do you watch nature documentaries? If so, how do you feel about animals eating other animals?

Hi Chrysaetos.

We are morally and ethically responsible for our actions because we have' institutionalized' animal abuse (all in the name of food). And like I said before, we have the ability to grow spiritually to the point where the notion of causing suffering is or should be entirely reprehensible. Those are reasons why we can't hold the lion to the same standard. He is a 'prisoner' of his instincts, his environment, his abilities and his (compared to ours) limited intellect.

And we don't minimize the pain. I read an article a couple years ago that the Washington Post printed about the slaughterhouse process. The gist of it was that one interviewed worker talked about how as cattle arrived at the station where their legs were being cut off, often they were blinking and mooing.......but the line never stopped and the chain saw started and the legs came off.

Last year in Australia, for 6 months, cattle exports to Indonesia was halted due to the extreme abuse and cruelty of the slaughter process. But it wasn't long before money won out and despite the fact that little changed in Indonesian slaughterhouses, the cattle began to be shipped again. http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/speci...aJune2011enews

What's more, the laws that prohibit animal cruelty and abuse are weak and unevenly implemented and as far as food animals are concerned, there are almost no laws that protect them. If I lock my cat in a rubbermaid bin for her entire life (with air holes and a place for her to stick her head out) and she is unable to turn around and can only lay down with difficulty, then charges of abuse can be made against me. But millions of pigs around the world, individually spend their entire breeding lives like that. And it is referred to as 'industry standards' instead of physical and mental torture of an animal that is at least as smart as your five year old child.

The whole 'animals eating animals' is a red herring, intended to distract from the real issue which is that we humans are abusive and cruel in our behavior and that despite the possibility for spiritual growth and moral and ethical improvement, we chose not to because our apparently inherent selfish nature rears its ugly head and screams "me first, me first!". And that invariably leaves the animals of the world swinging in the wind.

[Chrysaetos]

Whether we are responsible or not for our actions is a matter of debate. Many would quickly say yes, but I would say that in many cases we are limited with the choices we have and can't always play the saint. You call the lion limited to his instincts, environment, and abilities.. well so are we.

Originally Posted by DebbyM

The whole 'animals eating animals' is a red herring, intended to distract from the real issue which is that we humans are abusive and cruel in our behavior and that despite the possibility for spiritual growth and moral and ethical improvement, we chose not to because our apparently inherent selfish nature rears its ugly head and screams "me first, me first!". And that invariably leaves the animals of the world swinging in the wind.

Is the question too much of a stumbling block?

When an animal kills another animal, how do you feel about that?
Do you feel terrible about it, or is the pain an animal go through only bad when a human is the aggressor?

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Whether we are responsible or not for our actions is a matter of debate. Many would quickly say yes, but I would say that in many cases we are limited with the choices we have and can't always play the saint. You call the lion limited to his instincts, environment, and abilities.. well so are we.

Is the question too much of a stumbling block?

When an animal kills another animal, how do you feel about that?
Do you feel terrible about it, or is the pain an animal go through only bad when a human is the aggressor?

I can't believe that you said that our responsibility for our actions is a matter of debate. We are always responsible for our actions. Let's put it this way and assume that we have no choice on whether or not we eat animals (and you know how I feel on that one), but let's just say you're right. At the very least, we are responsible for how we treat those animals and how much they suffer.

If we truly cared (and I submit to you that 'we' don't), we would make sure that those sow's have room to move around, to root in the ground, to make a nest for her new piglets.....BUT we don't. Instead she is imprisoned in a steel cage that is NO BIGGER than her body. And this will last for about four years and then she'll be hauled to slaughter in an overcrowded truck on a trip that will often last several days, during which time she gets no food or water.

Cattle (if we cared) would have room to graze, wander on clean ground, feel the sun, raise their own calves....but they don't. Instead they are confined in feedlots that become swamps of manure, urine and mud. They are fed a diet, that if they weren't slaughtered when they are, it would kill them outright because their system isn't geared to soy and corn. And while they are eating that garbage, they are feeling the effects of it with discomfort and ill health, hence the daily anitbiotics.

And not only the extreme close confinement as a fact of their lives, but we add to their suffering by limited diet, nothing to mitigate mind numbing boredom (which often results in insanity), but we further treat them to beatings that cause injury and broken bodies.

You attempt to distract by repeatedly pointing at the wild animals without admitting to our own culpability in the abuse of farm animals and I have repeatedly said to you, that those lions and tigers and bears cannot be held to the same standards as we, because they don't have any choices. Certainly when a wild animal is eaten by another, I find that distressing as I sympathise with the prey animal and their terror and pain in that moment but I am aware of the necessity and their limitations. Does that make you feel better now that you know my feelings on that? I am neither blind nor stupid as far as nature goes, and neither am I blind to the abuses that humanity treats all creatures as a result of an ego inspired assumption of 'superiority' as we congratulate ourselves on being 'an apex predator'.

But when I look at the plight of the pig, or the dairy cow or the hens or the feedlot cattle or any others we chose to consume, I am distressed and disgusted. For all who claim to care about animals, but make no effort to change their dietary habits (whether to the extent that I have or even by so much as simply limiting ) the amount of meat that they consume, then I would say that you pay lip service to compassion but little else.

In the event that a culture exists where they have no choices (i.e. the Inuit who live in the far north, or indigenous peoples in remote areas where there is little education and/or 'modern' resources), then yes their choices are limited and the result is that they generally live in balance with nature and that means eating other animals. But we have choices, we have education, and we do not live in a balance and harmony with nature (and haven't for generations) and therefore that excuse is not available to us.

The question is not a stumbling block, it is irrelevant. We can not do anything to change the instincts or behavior of a lion. We can only control our own choices and behavior.

Seeing an animal kill another still hurts, especially for those of us who are empathic and feel others pain. The difference is that humans have a choice NOT to inflict that type of pain onto other living beings. That is all I can do, so I do my part to not add any more pain to the world.

Originally Posted by DebbyM

I can't believe that you said that our responsibility for our actions is a matter of debate. We are always responsible for our actions. Let's put it this way and assume that we have no choice on whether or not we eat animals (and you know how I feel on that one), but let's just say you're right. At the very least, we are responsible for how we treat those animals and how much they suffer.

If we truly cared (and I submit to you that 'we' don't), we would make sure that those sow's have room to move around, to root in the ground, to make a nest for her new piglets.....BUT we don't. Instead she is imprisoned in a steel cage that is NO BIGGER than her body. And this will last for about four years and then she'll be hauled to slaughter in an overcrowded truck on a trip that will often last several days, during which time she gets no food or water.

Cattle (if we cared) would have room to graze, wander on clean ground, feel the sun, raise their own calves....but they don't. Instead they are confined in feedlots that become swamps of manure, urine and mud. They are fed a diet, that if they weren't slaughtered when they are, it would kill them outright because their system isn't geared to soy and corn. And while they are eating that garbage, they are feeling the effects of it with discomfort and ill health, hence the daily anitbiotics.

You attempt to distract by repeatedly pointing at the wild animals without admitting to our own culpability in the abuse of farm animals and I have repeatedly said to you, that those lions and tigers and bears cannot be held to the same standards as we, because they don't have any choices. Certainly when a wild animal is eaten by another, I find that distressing as I sympathise with the prey animal and their terror and pain in that moment but I am aware of the necessity and their limitations. Does that make you feel better now that you know my feelings on that? I am neither blind nor stupid as far as nature goes, and neither am I blind to the abuses that humanity treats all creatures within an ego inspired assumption of 'superiority' as we congratulate ourselves on being 'an apex predator'.

But when I look at the plight of the pig, or the dairy cow or the hens or the feedlot cattle or any others we chose to consume, I am distressed and disgusted. For all who claim to care about animals, but make no effort to change their dietary habits (whether to the extent that I have or even by so much as limiting just for health sake) the amount of meat that they consume, then I would say that you pay lip service to compassion but little else.

In the event that a culture exists where they have no choices (i.e. the Inuit who live in the far north, or indigenous peoples in remote areas where there is little education and/or 'modern' resources), then yes their choices are limited and the result is that they generally live in balance with nature. We have choices, we have education, and we do not live in a balance with nature and therefore that excuse is not available to us.

Beautifully said.

Originally Posted by misscelt

The question is not a stumbling block, it is irrelevant. We can not do anything to change the instincts or behavior of a lion. We can only control our own choices and behavior.

Seeing an animal kill another still hurts, especially for those of us who are empathic and feel others pain. The difference is that humans have a choice NOT to inflict that type of pain onto other living beings. That is all I can do, so I do my part to not add any more pain to the world.

Right on misscelt! and you mirror my feelings exactly.

Early on when I first came to this forum, I got into discussions with some here (at that time) who maintained that:

- if you believe that we all (including the animals) made the choice to be in these lives that we live and that therefore it was useless and a waste of time and energy to endeavour to change 'the way things are'. That suffering was pre-ordained and our only job here was to look after ourselves and our spiritual evolution/experience.

While I do believe that pre-birth, we humans each chose the lives we wish to lead, I for one do not believe that any effort to change the way things are, is wasted. Those who do good, do so for themselves and they do it for the benefit of not only the ones they seek to protect, but also those who do (evil). Without the words and the actions of the do-gooders of the world, nothing would change. We are the example and the encouragers that cause the greater changes that make this world a better place as each generation passes by.

Without us, the world would still be in the grip of past horrors. Slavery was acceptable until the day that someone who was in the 'ruling class' said unequivocally, "Slavery is wrong". Children were seen as parental/adult property, to be used and abused as seen fit, but now we no longer send them up chimneys or see it as acceptable to imprison them in factories. Someone said "child slavery is wrong". Women were also treated as property, and now Germany has a woman at the helm as did Britain (in our lifetime).

The point is somebody has to step up and point out the bad before it can be changed to reflect an evolving society. Our world has grown and improved as a result of people with the courage to step out, against popular opinion and point out where changes need to be made. Without them and their 'outrageous suggestions', our world would look far different and far darker morally, than it does today.

So while I am continually saddened by the determination of many to maintain the status quo as far as the animals (of every sort) are concerned, I no longer harbour the same kind of anger towards them. It took a while but I now recognize that we are all part of a process and it continues on despite them. And I am also heartened by the growing awareness of many others as to the emotional lives of these same creatures that now we torture so cavalierly.

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by DebbyM

I can't believe that you said that our responsibility for our actions is a matter of debate. We are always responsible for our actions.

No we are most certainly not. If I sleepwalk, am I responsible for what I do during that experience? When a 5 year old child has learned from his father to be well mannered, is he responsible? What about the mentally retarded? What about people with mental illness? The list is endless. It is always, always, easy to BLAME an individual. We are only partly responsible for our actions, genetics and environmental changes and cues shape us to great extents. We do NOT live in a vacuum, somehow uninfluenced by external factors.

Originally Posted by DebbyM

You attempt to distract by repeatedly pointing at the wild animals without admitting to our own culpability in the abuse of farm animals and I have repeatedly said to you, that those lions and tigers and bears cannot be held to the same standards as we, because they don't have any choices.

Certainly when a wild animal is eaten by another, I find that distressing as I sympathise with the prey animal and their terror and pain in that moment but I am aware of the necessity and their limitations. Does that make you feel better now that you know my feelings on that? I am neither blind nor stupid as far as nature goes, and neither am I blind to the abuses that humanity treats all creatures as a result of an ego inspired assumption of 'superiority' as we congratulate ourselves on being 'an apex predator'

It is not a distraction. The question was how you feel towards animals that are killed or injured by other animals.

Is it about the pain of the animal, or is it only about ''humans''? If so, then it's a matter of guilt and not the pain of the animal. If I care about the pain those farm animals go through, I should also care about the pain that wild animals go through. If not, I am being inconsistent and my issue was not about general pain in animals to begin with. Turns out to be a matter of specifics again, people want to ''save'' certain species but don't really mind about other species. This is what ALL of us do in the end (and I don't blame anyone for that)..

We may eat and slaughter animals but it does not mean we are ''superior''. I find notions like that useless because the small critters will most likely be here when humans have gone extinct. ''Top of the food chain'' is merely a perspective, in the end all that matters is the situation and adaptation. By the way, I would say it is the veg and spiritual people who have a tendency to see humans as superior (cloaked with spiritual superiority and also ideas about so called 'free will').

Originally Posted by DebbyM

But we have choices, we have education, and we do not live in a balance and harmony with nature (and haven't for generations) and therefore that excuse is not available to us.

What is this balance you are speaking of?

[Lightspirit]

I am a vegetarian not just because its right, it also gives someone something to disagree with on forums. I just like helping...

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

No we are most certainly not. If I sleepwalk............... By the way, I would say it is the veg and spiritual people who have a tendency to see humans as superior (cloaked with spiritual superiority and also ideas about so called 'free will').

What is this balance you are speaking of?

Oh pardon me. I assumed that we were talking about adult people who are conscious/awake and not suffering from some form of mental health issues, at the time that they make their decision. Does this mean that you include people who've been lying in a persistently vegetative state as well in your protestations that we are not or don't have to be responsible for our actions? Heck this changes everything. You should have explained how wide open your parameters are.

As for the rest of your reply, you are still focusing on your question, that I've answered very plainly. But since you apparently missed it, I'll repeat myself. I feel VERY BAD for the animals that are killed by other animals. I feel bad for the terror they experience and for the pain that they must suffer. And I feel horrible also for the terror and pain that farmed animals experience as a result of humanities belief that they don't have to care about the suffering and terror of the animals that they eat. And that lack of concern has been documentated ad nauseum. I am not inconsistent. Can you say the same?

Your allegation that veg'n people and spiritual people are the ones claiming 'superiority' is so bizarre as to be laughable and demonstrates that there is a failure in your personal 'education' and understanding. We veg'ns believe that animals have the same rights to life and freedom from human caused suffering, that you and I hope for. And as far as spiritual people, well, there are so many shades of 'grey' in that group that to make a blanket statement like you did doesn't make a lot of sense.

As a spiritual person, I believe that the earth and the universe and the animals and the stars and everything in between is a manifestation of the All. That we are all part of the One in the same way that my little toe is different than my spleen or my ear, but they are all part of my body and what hurts my spleen is also detrimental to my toe in a broad sense. I hope that example is clear enough.

So to cause injury to a creature is the equivelant of causing injury to myself. And yes, I know that you are going to throw carrots or some such thing into the mix and I would submit to you, that the reason that they weren' given brains and brain stems and nerve endings and a means to flee from danger is because they are the basic source of energy for all of us, including predators. So no, I'm not interested in getting into a tedious discussion about carrots feelings and how could I do that to them.

The balance that I speak of is what happens in nature. When there are too many of a species, either they are controlled by predation from other species, or they starve, or they die from disease. We struggle against death to the point where we are in the process of over-running a planet with finite capacity. Doctors keep babies alive that should be allowed to pass on, or adults hooked up to machines because their families won't let them go. We spend billions on research to beat every disease despite the fact that our numbers are increasing to the detriment of the planet. Doctors search endlessly for means to keep people alive or to create more, as though there should be no concern for the number of humans that are munching our way through everything that this planet provides. We have overthrown the balance.

And instead of living simply with the intentions of just meeting our needs, our greed, which in this era of bankers who've ruined the economy of countries, is especially obvious, propels us to accumulate and hoard even to the point of turning our backs on those who have nothing. That is how we have handled the notion of living in balance with the planet. We've thumbed our nose at it. Humanity in general lives outside the balance of nature. That is the balance that I was referring to.