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  #11  
Old 21-01-2020, 12:24 PM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
When we believe something it doesn't necessarily mean that it is true - as far as we know what 'true' could or might be.
If you/we believe that karma can organise itself in such manifold ways we badly need to define the software running the karma programme and so get the low down on the whole thing.

Anyway, we can now add to the list of all those things caused by us which have led the force of karma to lead to results of all kinds, such as:
Talking of working brains, if people understood what's rattling around in their noggins their Spirituality would be very different. Like belief for instance, it's the end product of all kinds of things that your skull is stuffed with and while Spiritual people seem to be running away from what makes them human, they're doing just what makes them human. In the grand scheme of things, Spirit doesn't do beliefs.

It's also interesting how brain patterns haven't really changed, fundamentally. For instance - "the force of karma?" Spiritually, what's the difference between the force of karma and the will of the gods or God? Both imply external agencies.

The question is, are the right questions being asked? People make things happen, karma didn't start a world war nor drop atomic bombs. Or fly planes into the twin towers, or give you a rich and interesting Life. If anything, Life's purpose gave you your Life so that you could have the experiences you're having. That's the whole reason any of us are walking around this lump of rock - we made that choice.

So here's a question for you, just for the sake of exploration. So there you are in Spirit and you've made all the Karmic Agreements or however you see the process. Then you come to earth and have your Life, and you pop your clogs in a plane crash. Bear in mind that the experience of dying in a plane crash would have been on your to-do list. What if circumstances had been directed/engineered to give you that experience? Not just you personally, but also the other people involved? Then Life's Purpose/Karmic Obligations would apply - NOT karma - and we're no longer victims but one step closer to a far deeper understanding.

If there is Free Will, didn't we make the choice to be here?
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  #12  
Old 21-01-2020, 02:17 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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So where, if anywhere, did karma play a role in this
100%

Keep in mind that karma is always being generated at every moment by every life, and can be altered as part of free-will within that incessant generation. It is not arbitrary. Neither is it antithetical to or mutually exclusive of free-will. Rather it is essential to it, otherwise there would be chaos, and utter randomicity - "accidents" (which the mind assigns as attribute to what it cannot fathom as cause-effect relationship. Spiritual masters have this vision) The entire universe(s) is formed of the Intention, Vision, and Will of Lives. We as individuals have a limited version in our little lives, personal "universe" which is part and parcel of greater...

All life is subsumed (like the individual cells within a body) within greater "Lives" who or which are also generating karma which is necessarily recipient by those subsumed. Adding to that, human beings are a ceaselessly shifting complex amalgam of vastly different consciousness/energetics that we as individuals are not fully aware of the activity or import in our lives...even as these are instrumental to the generation of karma.

Intention is also "action" and as such also generates karma.

There are 3 kinds of karma:

1) that which is currently being generated (offers the potential for alteration of #2 or 3, is the innate capacity to transform "fate", or generate new possibility, including ascension of consciousness)
2) that which is already generated, is latent but not currently expressing
3) that which has been generated and is currently expressing

There are no accidents - that is a mental superimposition based on an aversion to the concept of karma! (i.e., accident being something the being finds inconvenient, disturbing, destructive to expectation etc., or "good accidents" - simply karma from previous action or intention seen as beneficial. All of it cause and effect regardless of how perceived by ego-mind.

The scenario referred to in the OP is no different than the infallible and continuous preservation and transformation (re-creation) of the entire universe at every moment which also includes the increasing free-will of more advanced beings who generate karma that eventually manifests or is altered. That alteration is also karma!

It's very complex and nuanced with innumerable 'moving parts' and why so little understood by simplistic theories, platitudes, and dismissals.

~ J

Last edited by Jyotir : 21-01-2020 at 03:12 PM.
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  #13  
Old 21-01-2020, 02:58 PM
Busby Busby is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Talking of working brains, if people understood what's rattling around in their noggins their Spirituality would be very different. Like belief for instance, it's the end product of all kinds of things that your skull is stuffed with and while Spiritual people seem to be running away from what makes them human, they're doing just what makes them human. In the grand scheme of things, Spirit doesn't do beliefs.

It's also interesting how brain patterns haven't really changed, fundamentally. For instance - "the force of karma?" Spiritually, what's the difference between the force of karma and the will of the gods or God? Both imply external agencies.

The question is, are the right questions being asked? People make things happen, karma didn't start a world war nor drop atomic bombs. Or fly planes into the twin towers, or give you a rich and interesting Life. If anything, Life's purpose gave you your Life so that you could have the experiences you're having. That's the whole reason any of us are walking around this lump of rock - we made that choice.

So here's a question for you, just for the sake of exploration. So there you are in Spirit and you've made all the Karmic Agreements or however you see the process. Then you come to earth and have your Life, and you pop your clogs in a plane crash. Bear in mind that the experience of dying in a plane crash would have been on your to-do list. What if circumstances had been directed/engineered to give you that experience? Not just you personally, but also the other people involved? Then Life's Purpose/Karmic Obligations would apply - NOT karma - and we're no longer victims but one step closer to a far deeper understanding.

If there is Free Will, didn't we make the choice to be here?

It all depends upon where and how you or me or anyone is going to start and what we believe. Our beliefs at any given moment stemm from that which we have collated and sorted from our experiences. As we all have personal experiences we thus have personal beliefs. We do indeed take care not to let anything slip into our collection of experiences which could upset the apple cart. The apple cart being the plinth on which we stand and which has formed itself from the whole range of all life's happening from small things to big things.

Free thinking is the way, not free will.

To say that life has either a purpose or obligations is meandering into a fantasy universe where things like karma or 'spirit' (whatever that may be) are offered a chance to explain (mainly to ourselves, I'd say) a myriad of situations or constellations which we cannot otherwise fathom. I did, I think, make it clear in my contribution that using karma as an explanation for everything that happens is the easy way out of any situation which we cannot explain to fit into that which we believe.

If there is freewill you say. Exactly, 'if'. We have no idea if there is such a thing. Those two words mean a thousand different things to a thousand people. Did we make the choice to be here? Well did we? I certainly don't know and I'm certainly not going to believe it because somebody, somewhere who is convinced, one way or the other, tells me. I rely upon myself to pose and answer such a puzzle.

Nor do I think ('think' not believe) that a belief or beliefs are the end product of assimilated thoughts or ideas. I would suggest that beliefs are the first step(s) towards beginning to clarify any given circumstances which seem to effect one's life. Right at the end it's realizing the impossibility of knowing anything that indicates the glimmer under the door.

You ask what the difference is between the force of karma or god(s). For me the question doesn't arise as I think the answer lies somewhere else and the answers which resolve my questions have, in the main, been given to me. Nor can we say that brain patterns haven't fundamentally changed. Firstly because we don't know - and don't yet know much about our brains either, but it does seem as if the collected information available to the human mind has, in the last two centuries gone ahead leaps and bounds. We are shedding superstitions and old wives' tales which have been solid anchors for centuries staying in the watery ground whilst gathering rust.

Basically I suppose, to maybe fit in with any free will theory, it is obvious that if there is such a thing as karma then we are bound and therefore not free. If we have to 'balance things out in life(s)' then obviously we are serfs and stuck with tilling the ground and paying our rent to some imagined landlord.

Fortunately we have this gift called imagination so each of us have created our own world and will create many more.
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  #14  
Old 22-01-2020, 07:50 AM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Karma could be an illusion.

For example, Person 1 and Person 2 experience the same event.

Person 1 is traumatized for the rest of their life.

Person 2 brushes the event off and chalks it up as another adventure.


In this case, is not Karma, an aspect of personal perception?
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  #15  
Old 22-01-2020, 07:59 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Many would say in a life full of suffering had that they do not want to return to this world.

I know that I have personally said this many times .

This statement made however is not encompassing the bigger picture .

When the soul has the urge to reincarnate it will be because there is something within itself that requires a particular experience due to the sum of it's parts already accumulated ..

In a way karma is likened to a magnetic force that simply brings to you what your spirit / soul requires for whatever reason that may be .



x daz x
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  #16  
Old 22-01-2020, 08:40 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
It all depends upon where and how you or me or anyone is going to start and what we believe. Our beliefs at any given moment stemm from that which we have collated and sorted from our experiences. As we all have personal experiences we thus have personal beliefs. We do indeed take care not to let anything slip into our collection of experiences which could upset the apple cart. The apple cart being the plinth on which we stand and which has formed itself from the whole range of all life's happening from small things to big things.
Our beliefs are formed in many ways and experience is the least of them. What we actually experience is the 'mechanical', physical process but our reality is formed from our perceptions - perceptions are reality. How our perceptions are formed is a different matter entirely but this is where our beliefs are created. Often beliefs are agenda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
Free thinking is the way, not free will.
I agree there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
To say that life has either a purpose or obligations is meandering into a fantasy universe where things like karma or 'spirit' (whatever that may be) are offered a chance to explain (mainly to ourselves, I'd say) a myriad of situations or constellations which we cannot otherwise fathom. I did, I think, make it clear in my contribution that using karma as an explanation for everything that happens is the easy way out of any situation which we cannot explain to fit into that which we believe.

If there is freewill you say. Exactly, 'if'. We have no idea if there is such a thing. Those two words mean a thousand different things to a thousand people. Did we make the choice to be here? Well did we? I certainly don't know and I'm certainly not going to believe it because somebody, somewhere who is convinced, one way or the other, tells me. I rely upon myself to pose and answer such a puzzle.
So we're the product of random happenstance and there is no rhyme nor reason to existence?

I made the choice to be here, what you believe or not is up to you. Many people believe that we did indeed make the choice to be here while others didn't. If we didn't make the choice, then what?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
Nor do I think ('think' not believe) that a belief or beliefs are the end product of assimilated thoughts or ideas. I would suggest that beliefs are the first step(s) towards beginning to clarify any given circumstances which seem to effect one's life. Right at the end it's realizing the impossibility of knowing anything that indicates the glimmer under the door.
I do. I'm currently taking a course to become a cognitive behaviour therapist because this is where my current interests lie with Spirituality. I want to know where my beliefs come from and how they are formed, what I don't want to do is pack my skull full of nonsense just so I can wear the Spiritual badge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
You ask what the difference is between the force of karma or god(s). For me the question doesn't arise as I think the answer lies somewhere else and the answers which resolve my questions have, in the main, been given to me. Nor can we say that brain patterns haven't fundamentally changed. Firstly because we don't know - and don't yet know much about our brains either, but it does seem as if the collected information available to the human mind has, in the last two centuries gone ahead leaps and bounds. We are shedding superstitions and old wives' tales which have been solid anchors for centuries staying in the watery ground whilst gathering rust.
The question does arise for me because I am interested in such things. I want to know, I want to understand. Even in pre-Christian days people believed they were at the beck-and-call of the gods or stars that directed their fates, and karma seems to be another power that has taken on that same role. The old wives' tales are still very much alive and kicking.

So tell me if you will. Where does karma lie when there is no time, or all of time affects all of time all of the time? When karma - cause and effect - is a construct of a mind that's within linear time? You see, sometimes cause precedes affect, so how does that affect karma?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
Basically I suppose, to maybe fit in with any free will theory, it is obvious that if there is such a thing as karma then we are bound and therefore not free. If we have to 'balance things out in life(s)' then obviously we are serfs and stuck with tilling the ground and paying our rent to some imagined landlord.
People have the Free Will to believe that there is such a thing as karma, that it is out to get you if you're not a good person. People also have the Free Will to reject anything that erodes the whole idea of karma. The bottom line, however, is that agenda and cognitive processes dictate beliefs and not Spirituality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
Fortunately we have this gift called imagination so each of us have created our own world and will create many more.
So we have the Free Will to use our imagination and have created our own worlds, can we not create a world in which we have Free Will or did we have the Free Will to create a world where we didn't have the Free Will, that we were victims of yet another external force of our own creations?

Or maybe the concept that we create our own realities is another pile of hocum? If we created our own realities, don't we also create everything that is within that reality - including the paranoia that karma brings?
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  #17  
Old 22-01-2020, 09:01 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Many would say in a life full of suffering had that they do not want to return to this world.

I know that I have personally said this many times .

This statement made however is not encompassing the bigger picture .

When the soul has the urge to reincarnate it will be because there is something within itself that requires a particular experience due to the sum of it's parts already accumulated ..

In a way karma is likened to a magnetic force that simply brings to you what your spirit / soul requires for whatever reason that may be .



x daz x
Hey there Daz


As I understand it, the translation for the Sanskrit word 'karma' was 'action', and later that was taken to mean cause and effect. I recently watched a YouTube where Sadhguru talked about this and said that it still means 'action'. Even if the definition is cause and effect, what happens when - within a non-linear timeframe - effect precedes cause? Or from a more Spiritual perspective of there being no time?

I've said myself, that I've had enough of this malarkey and that I want to go Home, and my Soul feels as though it's crying for leaving. At the same time though, if I had the choice of going back to Spirit and starting it all from scratch I'd do exactly the same thing again if it meant achieving the same results. So where does karma fit there?

What you're describing here is more of a feedback loop where like attracts like - resonance, frequencies of vibrations and all that. The same difference?
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  #18  
Old 22-01-2020, 10:17 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Hey there Daz


As I understand it, the translation for the Sanskrit word 'karma' was 'action', and later that was taken to mean cause and effect. I recently watched a YouTube where Sadhguru talked about this and said that it still means 'action'. Even if the definition is cause and effect, what happens when - within a non-linear timeframe - effect precedes cause? Or from a more Spiritual perspective of there being no time?

I've said myself, that I've had enough of this malarkey and that I want to go Home, and my Soul feels as though it's crying for leaving. At the same time though, if I had the choice of going back to Spirit and starting it all from scratch I'd do exactly the same thing again if it meant achieving the same results. So where does karma fit there?

What you're describing here is more of a feedback loop where like attracts like - resonance, frequencies of vibrations and all that. The same difference?

Hey G.S. :)

In a way when a boulder is rolling down the hill gathering momentum all there is, is motion.

So there is a kind of loop like you suggested above that is present in some shape or form and this can as I see it relate to karma and can continue to be in effect unless the momentum changes or the direction changes . Similar to a game of chess really and as an analogy it works well because once the game has started, depending on what you do you can be left with limited player / options amongst other things . This is action / cause and effect in motion .

I would say this is why peeps at a point in life do eventually self enquire / contemplate and 'sit quietly still' in order to rethink and evaluate their current position .

Otherwise you will see peeps that are on self destruct mode, simply self destructing, it's not rocket science .

So there is an action that causes and effects and there is an attraction of sorts that facilitates that motion .

So in a way I can encompass lots of energies at play in regards to karma in effect .

In regards to what you said in regards to how your soul feels and choosing to do it all again I can relate for I would do the same .. but one would have to understand why one would contemplate doing it all over again regardless of the sufferings had and endured .

I don't think karma as a word in itself is big enough to incorporate everything that is in play here because there is so much more that one needs to be aware of in these instances ..

Something as an example that I became aware of at a spiritual retreat a year ago spread some light on why specific energies from spirit come to see me .

Now if my life had been different from what it is now and the sufferings endured never materialised then these energies would not be coming to see me for the reasons why they do lol ..

So part of me has wished to return back home like you have also said but part of me understands for reasons why I have endured what I have .

So when the question is asked, 'where does karma' fit in with all this, then I would say that there is a reason for why the motion of this life came to be and this reason could incorporate some level of karmic influence .

There are those however that have transmuted all their karma and will not return or they will but it won't be in reflection of their personal karma .



x daz x
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  #19  
Old 22-01-2020, 04:29 PM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Hey G.S. :)
Hey there back, Daz

Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
In a way when a boulder is rolling down the hill gathering momentum all there is, is motion.

So there is a kind of loop like you suggested above that is present in some shape or form and this can as I see it relate to karma and can continue to be in effect unless the momentum changes or the direction changes . Similar to a game of chess really and as an analogy it works well because once the game has started, depending on what you do you can be left with limited player / options amongst other things . This is action / cause and effect in motion .
OK, so where does time come into that equation? We have this linear perception of time when Spirituality will tell you that there is no time and science will tell you that time is local to the perceiver, and all of time affects all of time all of the time - so effect can precede cause or both can happen simultaneously. Tolle said that the past is memory and the future is expectation so there is only the Now. Motion is only the perception of 'here' and 'there' when to Spirit, everywhere IS.

I'm a lateral thinker which means my thought patterns aren't rigid and I often take other things into account while trying to understand something. Which is what I've always done with karma, because the 'stock answers' simply don't resonate. To me, linear time and distance have to play a part in the beliefs of what karma is. We've discussed before about how we can 'time travel' with consciousness and with my own experiences, I can understand how effect can precede cause. Being honest I'm not sure which one was which.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
I would say this is why peeps at a point in life do eventually self enquire / contemplate and 'sit quietly still' in order to rethink and evaluate their current position .
Most people do but often it has more to do with psychology than some external force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Otherwise you will see peeps that are on self destruct mode, simply self destructing, it's not rocket science .
Not really, some people are happy with their Lives as they are and are quite happy with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
So there is an action that causes and effects and there is an attraction of sorts that facilitates that motion .
OK, I can understand the attraction because that's all "like attracts like," synchronicity and such. I've heard the phrase "Newtonian Spirituality" coined and I thought it was interesting, what it means is that some Spiritual 'models' of belief are more mechanical - and karma being cause and effect is like Newton and the apple on his noggin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
So in a way I can encompass lots of energies at play in regards to karma in effect .
As can I, I just can't resolve them and karma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
In regards to what you said in regards to how your soul feels and choosing to do it all again I can relate for I would do the same .. but one would have to understand why one would contemplate doing it all over again regardless of the sufferings had and endured .
Well this one has thought about not himself but all the changes that he's made to the Lives of others and has deemed it worth it, regardless of sufferings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
I don't think karma as a word in itself is big enough to incorporate everything that is in play here because there is so much more that one needs to be aware of in these instances ..
I definitely agree there, or at least with there being more than karma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Something as an example that I became aware of at a spiritual retreat a year ago spread some light on why specific energies from spirit come to see me .

Now if my life had been different from what it is now and the sufferings endured never materialised then these energies would not be coming to see me for the reasons why they do lol ..

So part of me has wished to return back home like you have also said but part of me understands for reasons why I have endured what I have .
I've come to the very same conclusions. If Natalie Sudman's account (which is similar to so many others) is accurate then as Spirit we can project possible timelines that lead to possible futures and choose one that suits. Then what you're talking about here - and I agree with it, by the way - would facilitate our Life's Purpose or the choices we made as Spirit. At least from a linear perspective anyway. Which would make us God-like too. Even the non-Spiritual and the 'bad guys', because they made their choices too. So if Spirit did indeed choose to have the karma (or whatever it is) of a bad guy? That's another question that I haven't had an answer for, especially in the context of 'bad karma'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
So when the question is asked, 'where does karma' fit in with all this, then I would say that there is a reason for why the motion of this life came to be and this reason could incorporate some level of karmic influence .

There are those however that have transmuted all their karma and will not return or they will but it won't be in reflection of their personal karma .

x daz x
In this you have my most enthusiastic agreement, at least Spiritually anyway. I'm a firm believer in reasons for being here and have spent a fair bit of time thinking about my own reasons. So if there is such a thing as Life's Purpose I'm the No.1 fan, so that slot is booked. Sorry. If you mean karma as being that which facilitates the process then I have difficulty differentiating the Universe itself with karma in that context, because to me it's the Universe that does the facilitating by way of synchronicity and frequencies/feedback loop of consciousness.

On the other hand though, I ask myself if that is simply my psychology coming up with something to resolve the need for agency, or external influences that make things happen - like "The Will of the God." Quaking earth, trumpets, and other Biblical special effects.

I was told recently that I have a couple of tasks to fulfil and they'll happen in mid-June time. After that Spirit has no real answers for me. I was also told that I'd be offered a second exit point and that I'm not coming back regardless of any other choices. If that constitutes having transmuted my karma then hurrah, but it doesn't feel that way somehow. My Soul wants to put its feet up and have a few beers, then we'll see what the wind blows in.
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  #20  
Old 22-01-2020, 07:31 PM
inavalan inavalan is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
Karma could be an illusion.

For example, Person 1 and Person 2 experience the same event.

Person 1 is traumatized for the rest of their life.

Person 2 brushes the event off and chalks it up as another adventure.


In this case, is not Karma, an aspect of personal perception?

Actually that's how Karma works: it perpetuates your thoughts. It isn't reality perception; it is reality creation.
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Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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