Done with the New Age

[Rokon]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I mean there are right now an estimated 100 million people who practice Mahayana Buddhism which is a tantric/energy based system. Are you saying that all of those people are just stupid? That they are being sold a bill of goods and will never experience anything like that?

If so how could something like that last for thousands of years?

I agree that the use of the word "energy" in spiritual, new age parlance is painfully blurry. Have you ever listened to reiki practitioners converse? And for some reason in the circles there is a reverence, or deference, that allows the users of the word "energy" to keep the meaning blurry.

People can verbalize the type of energy they are referring to if they choose to. Can people describe dreams? Do people understand the difference between violent energy and pleasant energy? How about fourth chakra energy, can that be differentiated from third chakra energy? YES!

And secondly there is the issue of credibility for skeptics that have to hear it. If someone is talking about how important and useful and imperative "source" energy is, or I AMness, or universal then if they keep saying "I can't describe it you have to experience it first". That sounds like a insincerity. A fakeout, like perhaps you are describing something you read about and are passing it off. If it was real then certainly one could at least define the energy as something that can be shared.

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by Holly

Just one small clarification of my OP...meditation to my mind doesn't just mean sitting down and going OHM.

Meditation = mindfulness, in whatever form you want to practise it, sitting, walking, driving, singing, through sex. Whatever.

When I say meditation is all you need, I mean that in my experience, mindfulness (ie, meditation in whatever form) is all you need to advance COMPARED TO doing lots of new age practises. I wasn't saying other things won't help too, they probably will, depending on how you do them. And naturally we all needs things to help shift our minds about...but do them mindfully and in my experience they do become more powerful.

Perhaps I should have said mindfulness in the OP but tbh, meditation and mindfulness have always been synonymous for me because they feel like the same thing, done with slightly different actions.

Hi Holly,

So in that sense, the conscious deliberate invocation of a Personal Supreme Being is the ‘mindfulness’ of devotional practice. That works well for many.

Meanwhile, just clarifying here…

If ‘mindfulness’ in any and varied forms is valid for any number of individuals, then there is nothing to invalidate, as COMPARED TO oneself, but rather to simply affirm one’s own individual necessity. What you appear to be saying is that you discovered that.

And that is the very essence of the New Age - not a rejection of it.

You experienced, realised and described that for yourself, the presumption of ‘needing’ to adopt others’ chosen practices, were at one time based on unexamined expectation that you implicitly had to accept them from status quo social pressure; perceived as an imposition, which is an inverted definition of New Age based on a transitional understanding of the role of the individual within it. That’s what I meant by, “need for consensus residual from previous regimes” - i.e., ‘traditional’ mode of religion/religious affiliation.

The true New Age ideal does not impose or demand consensus, and by nature it has to be voluntary, which may incidentally become consensus, but that isn’t primary or even important. What will then happen is that associations based on common interest will be far more fluid than in the past in accommodating personal evolutions, and not necessarily based on genetics/family ties, or tied to geographic factors as now-traditional religion has been.

Ultimately, the decentralized premise (vs centralized authority) permits - and actually demands that people make their own individual choices of practice. The realisation is that others’ similar personal choices have little meaning in terms of one’s own path and necessity, except for the fact that they become available, as awareness of them permits in and through the social sphere, which again, is the decentralizing beauty of the New Age.

This has recently become well supported (and accelerated) by technological advances in communications which ironically creates an overwhelming mass of confusing, disparate and seemingly conflicting choices, including those of highly questionable authenticity presented on equivalent ‘platforms’, appearing as apparently equal in merit to highly authoritative sources. What becomes the salient necessity then is not conformity to any particular external (pre-determined by 'gate-keepers'/centralized authority), but rather, the indispensable necessity of direct personal experience and honing of intuition and discrimination (another important feature).

You realized the necessity of that subjective inner guidance in actualising that personal choice, vs. less-conscious automatic adoption of (various) objective external practices and methods as imposition (i.e., traditional religion) due to the transitional assumption that they must be ‘sampled’, perhaps as some kind of mandatory N.A. ‘initiation’ process.

It doesn’t happen that way for everyone, even if it is quite common. Yet that sampling may still be part of others’ legitimate path as that very transition , like it was for you - after which they may also have the revelation of what particular approaches work for them. . . at the present moment.

Welcome to the New Age.

~ J

[Internal Queries]

jonesboy,

I am not asking for labels. You said traditional practices didn't work for people and I just asked for examples is all.

no. i didn't say traditional practices didn't work for people. i said that traditional practices don't work for all people and that following the paths set by others is not necessary to gain "enlightenment".

you asked me what "new age" practices i found that were better than traditional practices and i re-asserted that i'm not "new age" and that labels don't apply.

[Internal Queries]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi Holly,

So in that sense, the conscious deliberate invocation of a Personal Supreme Being is the ‘mindfulness’ of devotional practice. That works well for many.

Meanwhile, just clarifying here…

If ‘mindfulness’ in any and varied forms is valid for any number of individuals, then there is nothing to invalidate, as COMPARED TO oneself, but rather to simply affirm one’s own individual necessity. What you appear to be saying is that you discovered that.

And that is the very essence of the New Age - not a rejection of it.

You experienced, realised and described that for yourself, the presumption of ‘needing’ to adopt others’ chosen practices, were at one time based on unexamined expectation that you implicitly had to accept them from status quo social pressure; perceived as an imposition, which is an inverted definition of New Age based on a transitional understanding of the role of the individual within it. That’s what I meant by, “need for consensus residual from previous regimes” - i.e., ‘traditional’ mode of religion/religious affiliation.

The true New Age ideal does not impose or demand consensus, and by nature it has to be voluntary, which may incidentally become consensus, but that isn’t primary or even important. What will then happen is that associations based on common interest will be far more fluid than in the past in accommodating personal evolutions, and not necessarily based on genetics/family ties, or tied to geographic factors as (now) traditional religion has been.

Ultimately, the decentralized premise (vs centralized authority) permits - and actually demands that people make their own individual choices of practice. The realisation is that others’ similar personal choices have little meaning in terms of one’s own path and necessity, except for the fact that they become available, as awareness of them permits in and through the social sphere, which again, is the decentralizing beauty of the New Age.

This has recently become well supported (and accelerated) by technological advances in communications which ironically creates an overwhelming mass of confusing, disparate and seemingly conflicting choices, including those of highly questionable authenticity presented on equivalent ‘platforms’, appearing as apparently equal in merit to highly authoritative sources. What becomes the salient necessity then is not conformity to any particular external (pre-determined by 'gate-keepers'/centralized authority), but rather, the indispensable necessity of direct personal experience and honing of intuition and discrimination (another important feature).

You realized the necessity of that subjective inner guidance in actualising that personal choice vs. less-conscious automatic adoption of (various) objective external practices and methods as imposition (i.e., traditional religion) due to the transitional assumption that they must be ‘sampled’, perhaps as some kind of mandatory N.A. ‘initiation’ process.

It doesn’t happen that way for everyone, even if it is quite common. Yet that sampling may still be part of others’ legitimate path as that very transition - like it was for you - after which they may also have the revelation of which particular approaches work for them. . . at the present moment.

Welcome to the New Age.

~ J

this is very good!

Originally Posted by Internal queries

wait a minute. are you suggesting that traditional religions haven't been touting their respective way as the best and only way. and i find it odd that you believe that those forging their own path aren't disciplined in their own way. if you follow a specific path which has many "shoulds" and "shouldnt's", a step by step formula and prescribed expectations of specific experiences then you'd experience what you were led to expect to experience. you get the same knowledge everyone else gets when indulging in a particular practice. not everyone wants to be an acolyte and practice what others practice and experience the same stuff others experience as prescribed. not everyone is a conformist.

Religions? Where are you picking that up from what I said? Was that an assumption?

are you suggesting that those posting here and seeking like minded peers are different from those attending a church? that seeking a peer group (a congregation) is an implication of special loneliness and spiritual failure for "new agers" but not for those in traditional religions?

Good heavens - you do love reading things that aren't there. If I comment, be assured there's nothing between the lines to read. I can't even relate your response to the piece you quote....like... where does the church come into what I said?

i wouldn't know. i don't follow the path of others. i don't read spiritual "how to" books or watch utube gurus. however, i did and continue to go thru the "light bulb filament experience", which i find fascinating.

(On being asked how he, Thomas Edison, felt about repeatedly failing to design a working light bulb)

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work"

As for religions - they were set up to control people - that is to prevent them driving their own lives.

Good that - but as you say: you wouldn't know. But if you cared to have a look you'll see what I mean.

Originally Posted by Internal Queries

you mentioned Hinduism as an example of a spiritual path to be considered by undisciplined "new agers". the various sects of Hinduism are generally male dominated and are some of the most oppressive spiritual concepts on the planet, especially for women, not to mention the horrific caste system, so i'm not really catching your drift anymore.

You're at it again. I think I mentioned Hindu practices as an example of those that need an amount of study and experience taking much work and discipline. I'm not commenting on the quality/ethos/benefits of any particular practice, just the workload to do it properly.

Might be best to let it drop to avoid digging yourself into a deeper hole. But if you do want to enter discussion, can you read my comments as they are, uncoloured by your agenda? Yes?
Thanks.

....

[Internal Queries]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

Religions? Where are you picking that up from what I said? Was that an assumption?


Good heavens - you do love reading things that aren't there. If I comment, be assured there's nothing between the lines to read. I can't even relate your response to the piece you quote....like... where does the church come into what I said?



Good that - but as you say: you wouldn't know. But if you cared to have a look you'll see what I mean.



You're at it again. I think I mentioned Hindu practices as an example of those that need an amount of study and experience taking much work and discipline. I'm not commenting on the quality/ethos/benefits of any particular practice, just the workload to do it properly.

Might be best to let it drop to avoid digging yourself into a deeper hole. But if you do want to enter discussion, can you read my comments as they are, uncoloured by your agenda? Yes?
Thanks.

....

i don't have an agenda. i apparently misunderstood you when you spoke of "traditional practices" vs "undisciplined new age". in my mind, "traditional practices" are conveyed via long established religious organizations, practices being whatever rituals and/or methods of spiritual attainment are traditionally performed in congregational settings like churches, temples, mosques and synagogues ect.

i didn't dig any holes. i merely misunderstood you, a possibility i knew existed which is why i asked "are you suggesting ..."

and you're right. i reread your exampling of Hinduism and i did misread it.

oh and i don't need or want what utube gurus and "spiritual self help" book writers have to offer and it's none of my bizness that other people do. everyone to their own process, says i.

[r6r6]

jonesboy--My link to my progress gave many examples of energy which is beyond emotions.

My questions to your were regarding your use of the word "energy" gross generalizations. Not specifics.

...JB--..."I could tell you like running that it is blissful, ecstatic. That it is our true nature universal consciousness."...

So now you've gone to that which is "beyond" just feelings of "blissful" and "ecstatic" as indirect answers to my asking you for specifics of your gneralized "energy" comments.

Instead of stating what this "beyond" feelings ergo emotions is, you offer us a link. I want to see just type in direct, clear and specific answer. You have not done the directly and here again with beyond, you do not address my question with any clear, direct and specific definitions or explanations of any kind, in your own words.

The link about prana gives a very nice overview of what prana/energy is.

Ive already covered our first IN-spiration{ IN-spiritied } as a human is taking IN oxygen. No oxygen no life.

I see you didn't read anything beyond the title, did you watch the movie?

You don't understand because all you want to do is think and not do. Your comments about the 3rd eye, energy as an emotion shows that no matter what I say you won't believe.

I understand that you have not and continue to avoid directly addressing my question regarding more specifics of what exactly this "energy" is that you appear to think that you and some others have access too an others do not.

An open heart chakra radiates joy/love and happiness. It is the entire point of Buddhist love and compassion. To help people open their heart. Do you not here the stories of people overwhelmed with love pouring out of them?

Anything your practicing has not helped you to give direct, clear and specific answer to simple question posed to you. At best you give indirect answer that I stated above and repeat here again as you appear to have short memory.

...JB--..."I could tell you like running that it is blissful, ecstatic. That it is our true nature universal consciousness."...

All things are energy and we are those things.

How bout telling me something Ive not been telling you directly,in several posts now, with more specifics than you can offer us in your own words.

Again at best in your own words stated to me, you offer me "blistful" and "ecstatic" as indirect answer to what your use of generlized use of word "energy" means specifically.

When one is about to get beyond ones thoughts one is able to experience this.

Experience some kind "energy"? Explain this "energy" more beyond just "blissful" and "ecstatic" that all humans experience. In your own words please spell it out for us.

If one has a silent mind one can focus on any part of their body and feel the ecstatic nature of themselves. As one advancwa this becomes a natural state of being. It like anything else is a phase and one that can be very difficult for many to get past.

Ditto my last comment above regarding all people experience what your talking about with blissful and ecstatic.

You write like you are a scientist. You like proven knowledge. The things I talk about are the oldest practices known to man. As a man who likes proof I figured you might be willing to actually try things beyond just telling everyone they are crazy.

Still no direct answer to the question Ive been posing to you for a few posing replies now. Zip, Nada. And here again just above you misreprsent my comments again. 3rd 4th or more times now.

No where did I even come close to calling you "crazy". Please try to play fair. Review your practices and see if they give you any teaching on playing fair with others. Thx.

Do you even meditate? Do you even believe that we are not our thoughts, that you can observe them and let them go without pain or attachment?

Appears to me that you want to continually ask me more questions, than simple, directly, clearly and with some specifications of your use of the word "energy".

I mean there are right now an estimated 100 million people who practice Mahayana Buddhism which is a tantric/energy based system. Are you saying that all of those people are just stupid? That they are being sold a bill of goods and will never experience anything like that?

Again your infering/implying comments that I have not made.

Jonesboys indirect answer for his generalized use of the word "energy" appears to me to be plain ole blissfulness and ecstqacitness, something all humans experience. Old news. Thousands of years human experience. Old news to most if not all humans.

The new age is always with us just as the present is always with us.

r6

[naturesflow]

Everything old is new again. We can see this through this thread.

Ecclesiastes...Ch.1vrs.9....The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun.

[jonesboy]

I have given many examples to the words for energy.

You just don't like them is all.

Here are some more writing to help you understand.

Please read them this time;

Prana: the Universal Life Force
Swami Satyananda Saraswati
Zinal (Switzerland), September 1981
In the physical body we have two types of energies. One is known as prana and the other is known as mind or consciousness. That means, in every organ of the body there should be two channels supplying energy. Modern physiology describes two types of nervous systems - the sympathetic and the parasympathetic, and these two nervous systems are interconnected in each and every organ of the body. In the same way, every organ is supplied with the energy of prana and the energy of mind.

In yoga, the concept of prana is very scientific. When we speak of prana, we do not mean the breath, air or oxygen. Precisely and scientifically speaking, prana means the original life force.

Prana is a Sanskrit word constructed of the syllables pra and an. 'An' means movement and 'pra' is a prefix meaning constant. Therefore, prana means constant motion. This constant motion commences in the human being as soon as he is conceived in his mother's womb. Prana is therefore a type of energy responsible for the body's life, heat and maintenance.

Nadis, chakras and the distribution of prana

According to yoga, tantra and the science of kundalini, prana is supposed to originate in pingala nadi. Within the framework of the spinal cord, there are three channels known as nadis in yoga. One is called ida, another is pingala and the third is sushumna. Ida nadi represents the mental energy, pingala represents prana or pranic energy and sushumna represents spirit or spiritual awareness. These three nadis originate in mooladhara chakra, which is situated at the perineum or cervix. Pingala nadi flows to the right from mooladhara and continues to cross ida at each chakra all the way up to ajna.

There are six chakras through which pingala nadi passes. The first one is mooladhara chakra from which it originates. The second is swadhisthana where the nadi crosses to the left. The third is manipura chakra where the nadi crosses to the right. And the fourth is anahata where the nadi crosses to the left. The fifth is vishuddhi where the nadi crosses to the right and the sixth is ajna where the nadi terminates from the right. Similarly, ida nadi also crosses at each chakra but in the reverse order. Every sincere yoga aspirant should have a clear understanding of the pathway of these three major nadis.

Pingala nadi is the distributing channel for prana in the body, and from each chakra the pranas are disseminated to every organ of the body. From swadhisthana the pranic energy is distributed to the genito-urinary system. Manipura chakra supplies prana to the digestive system and anahata supplies the respiratory and cardiovascular systems. From vishuddhi, distribution takes place to the ears, eyes, nose and throat, and ajna chakra is the distributor of energy through which man's brain is fed.

The fuel of life

Prana is not merely a philosophical concept; it is in every sense a physical substance. Just as radioactive or electromagnetic waves exist even though we can't see them, in the same way, in this physical body, there are pranic waves and a pranic field. Now, each of us has a certain quantity of prana in our physical body and we utilize this in the course of our day to day activities throughout life. When our prana diminishes, sickness sets in, and when we have plenty of prana, every part of the body is in perfect health. If we have an excess of prana, it can be transmitted to others for healing or magnetism.

The inner prana can be stimulated by the practice of pranayama and thereby increased to a greater quantum. The brain requires maximum prana, and for the practice of meditation, it needs an increased supply. It is for this reason that we practise pranayama before commencing our meditation practice. If we are not able to supply plenty of pranic fuel to the brain, the mind becomes very restless and disturbed.

When the brain is receiving a deficient supply of prana, you suffer from nervous depression or nervous breakdown. Then the whole body perspires, there is trembling in every organ, you can't stand, your mind is unsteady and you are constantly thinking negative thoughts. You can't even sleep and you don't want to talk or think. This state indicates that the brain is only receiving a very small quantity of prana.

Increasing prana

You should not think that just by practising a little pranayama you are sending a lot of prana to the brain. The process of supply and assimilation of prana into the brain is very complicated. The brain is a subtle instrument and it can only be enriched by the subtle form of prana and not the gross form. Therefore, when you practise pranayama, you will have to convert the prana into a subtle force.

Deep breathing alone is not enough to stimulate prana. By breathing deeply, you stimulate your respiratory system and the blood circulation, but if you could examine the brain at that time, you would see that it is least affected. However, when you practise pranayama with concentration, as shown by scientific studies, the brainwaves undergo a significant change and the limbic system is also positively influenced.

Conscious and unconscious breathing

http://www.yogamag.net/archives/1982...prana582.shtml

Pranayama – Cultivating the soil of the nervous system

From: Yogani
Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 0:21pm

New Visitors: It is recommended you read from the beginning of the archive, as previous lessons are prerequisite to this one. The first lesson is, "Why This Discussion?"

It is common knowledge that when a friend is upset, really upset, it is good to tell him to breathe, to take slow, deep breaths in and out for a while. This invariably has a calming effect on the nervous system, mind, and emotions.

Why? Because it loosens the nerves. Tension constricts our nerves, and this restricts the flow of consciousness through us. Breathing slowly and deeply loosens our nerves, facilitating the flow of consciousness through us, and this has the desired relaxing effect.

To say that consciousness flows through us is a bit of an over-simplification. While, in truth, all is the flow of consciousness, it is more descriptive to say that the "life force" flows through us. What is the life force? It is the first manifestation of consciousness in matter. It is called, "prana," which means, "first unit." In the string theory of modern physics, the miniscule, subatomic energy strings thought to be the building blocks of everything in the universe might well be analogous to prana. In any case, we know that influencing prana (the life force) in the human body has significant effects on our nervous system, and our experience.

Meditation is a way of influencing prana with the mind taking the lead. The human mind arises from a flow of energy through the nerves of the brain. In meditation, we systematically allow that energy (prana) to become still, which brings us to the underlying cause of that energy. We experience it as pure silent bliss consciousness. In meditation, the attention is easily brought beyond the mind, and beyond prana. It is an extraordinary natural ability we have.

Besides meditation, there are other ways to influence prana to facilitate the purification of the nervous system for joining of our inner and outer nature. As mentioned, managing the breath can have a noticeable effect on our experience. By restraining the breath in certain ways we can produce certain predictable effects. This is the science of "pranayama," which means, "restraint of prana." In terms of what we do externally, it is called breath control. But there is more to pranayama than physical control of the breath. Other actions are brought to bear that deepen and broaden the effects of the breath. The mind is involved, and so is the body in ways other than by controlling the breath. Taken together, these actions loosen and cultivate the nervous system in ways that greatly enhance the effects of our core practice of meditation.

Think of the nervous system as the soil, and of pure bliss consciousness as the seed. We have been awakening the silent seed through regular daily meditation. Now we will be cultivating the soil of our nervous system so the seed of pure bliss consciousness will grow to be dynamic and strong in us.

How does the breath affect the flow of prana in the body? There is an electromagnetic relationship in the body between the breath, the mind, the flow of prana, and every aspect of our biological functioning. All of these are connected. This is why, when we meditate, the breath is automatically subdued and the whole metabolism slows down. During pranayama, when we consciously slow down the breath and mentally take it along a particular pathway, we influence the flow of prana in that pathway. It is a kind of induction. It is like inducing an electrical current in a wire with a magnet. So, using the breath in coordination with the mind, we are able to engage in selective purification of a particular channel in our nervous system that plays a leading role in the rise of enlightenment. This channel is the tiny thread-like nerve that runs up inside the spine and through the brain. It is called the "sushumna." Purifying and opening this nerve is where pranayama and additional advanced yoga practices will be focused.

http://www.aypsite.org/39.html


If those two articles don't answer your questions nothing will.

[jonesboy]

“According to the Hindu Philosophy the whole nature is composed of two principal substances. One of them is called the Akasa or ether and the other, Prana or energy. These two may be said to correspond to matter and force of the modern scientists. Everything in this universe that possesses form or that”

“has material existence, is evolved out of this omnipresent and all-pervasive subtle substance ‘Akasa’. Gas, liquid and solid, the whole universe, consisting of our solar system and millions of huge systems like ours and in fact every kind of existence that may be brought under the word ‘created’, are the products of this one subtle and invisible Akasa and at the end of each cycle return to the starting point. In the same way, all the way of forces of nature that are known to man; gravitation, light, heat, electricity, magnetism all those that can be grouped under the generic name of ‘energy’, physical creation, nerve-currents, all such as are known as animal forces and thought and other intellectual forces also, may be said to be the manifestations of the cosmic Prana. From Prana, they spring into existence and in Prana, they finally subside. Every kind of force in this universe, physical or mental can be resolved into this original force. There can be nothing new except these two factors in some one of their forms.”

Excerpt From: Sivananda, Swami. “The Science of Pranayama.” iBooks.
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