Can we attain perfection without a Guru

Originally Posted by I-Ching

You have misunderstood what I am saying. The ascending process has nothing to do with ascension. If anything it degrades our consciousness. The descending process i.e. knowledge that descends from God is the recommended process.

Spiritual Knowledge is knowledge that comes from God and pertains to the nature of the God, the soul, this material world and the process of liberation.

Spiritual knowledge is something we already had but we chose to forget for the duration of this Journey. We came from Spirit, we will return to Spirit and all of what we knew will be remembered. Any knowledge any of us can pick up along the way is pretty useless in comparison.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

I take the fact that you are avoiding answering the question indicates that you did learn to drive from a teacher. So it proves my point.

If you're so keen to hold on to an analogy that doesn't work, I didn't have a driving teacher. I climbed into a tractor when I was 14 and drove it without anyone telling me how to. It wasn't perfect, but I did it my way. (I feel a song coming on). But Life has taught me that Life isn't anything like driving a car. So, while we're here, you tell me where you got the idea that learning from a teacher is always better? I taught myself how to use computers and I build websites. Some have been taught by trainers and still struggle. I've had many years experience in training, what experience have you had that leads you to your beliefs?

Originally Posted by I-Ching

Atheism is a foolish belief. You claim life comes from matter although no such living entity has ever been found, nor produced. On the other hand there is overwhelming evidence that life come from life.

Our illusion comes from God and by serving God he removes that illusion. My beliefs are born from God.

Again the judgement. If you were so enlightened you'd perhaps see that Atheism can show as much about God as believing in him. I didn't make the claim, I haven't made any claims, but thank you for putting me in a box and giving me a label. I believe that matter is as much a part of this illusion as everything else. What appears solid isn't and scientists are slowly changing their views on nature of matter as their understanding grows. Life is energy, matter is energy so those Atheists might have something after all. And if you decry their beliefs through lack of evidence, what evidence has been found for the existence of God?

If we are born of illusion, then everything we learn within that illusion must also be a part of that illusion. Your beliefs, my beliefs, God - all illusion.

THis is what i was refering to UMA

Below, we have listed what the main points of Hinduism are when shorn of the propaganda of Hindu apologists.
1) God exists outside of space and time and is perfect oneness.
2) Using Maya - the power of illusion - God creates an illusory world of space and time in which the condition of oneness is replaced by the condition of many-ness. The universe of Maya is akin to God in a dream state where he imagines himself split into infinitely many parts.
3) God, when viewing himself in the mirror of Maya doesn't recognise himself because everything is distorted by space and time, concealing the true underlying oneness. He is overwhelmed by this vision of multiplicity.
4) Psychologically, God has become fragmented because of Maya and seeks to be whole again i.e. to free himself of Maya and return to his non-dream state. In effect, he is experiencing a nightmare. Material existence is hell and the underlying unity of God is heaven.
5) In the universe of Maya, God's single soul is fragmented into a vast number of separate souls that have lost all sense of their proper relationship with each other i.e. that they are part of God's soul and are not in any way individual.
6) These individual souls are in a state of complete ignorance about their true origins. They start to identify with their Mayic "ego", which revels in separation, difference, self-love and selfishness. They must overcome this ego if they are ever to realise their true nature. Their true Self is called Atman, and each ego is struggling to raise itself up and become Atman.
7) Through a series of painful lessons brought about by a process called karma, each of these souls will endure a hellish cycle (known as samsara) of birth, death and rebirth until they finally realise the truth about themselves and are able to see past the veil of Maya to the true nature of things i.e. that they are all part of God. This moment of supreme enlightenment, of liberation from samsara and karma, is called moksha.
8) When every soul has achieved moksha, God is whole again and the power of Maya is broken. However, it is likely that this process will continue for eternity i.e. God is an eternal becoming.

Hinduism can best be thought of as a process created by God to ensure that he is forever perfecting himself, always getting closer to the ideal of God familiar to all religions.

[Miss Hepburn]

Time, where did you find this?!

Very clear and informative!!

[Uma]

Time,

So your question below, refers to your points above?

Originally Posted by Time

And in east indian beleifs, the main god ( i cant remember the name rahman?, sahman?.... not a god but an energy i guess) needs us to break his "dream", in which he cannot see reality. It needs us to "wake up' and see that we are all one so it can be free correct?

First off, I don't speak for Hinduism. Neither does Sri Vasudeva, although he was born a Hindu - he has transcended and speaks from personal experience. I don't follow any religious belief system. My beliefs are fluid according to what I'm learning from my outer Gurus and my inner Guru. Besides that, Hinduism is not one entity but one of many variations and philosophies (just like Christianity or any belief system for that matter).

So your question relates to the view that God is defined as a cosmic ego that creates the illusion of our physical world (Maya) and that spiritual evolution is a process of waking up to that truth. Overall, a pretty good summary of that view (although I would, if I had the time, quibble over some of your assumptions here - for example "God" as a "he" - but I think this just meant to give a general sense of your idea of Maya). So this is my response to your question.

To me the Maya view is but one aspect of enlightened consciousness. But it's a useful tool to use in spiritual practice because when we strive to be conscious of more - be more mindful, in present moment awareness, we become more aware of what exists beyond the veil of maya. We become aware of our multi-dimensional existence.

For me, science fiction is far more useful in creating analogies about the expedience of our multi-dimensional realities than traditional scripture. Today we have the more or less common experience of internet and virtual reality for example - so we can go beyond the limited poetry of the scriptures to try to grasp intellectually what the experience of awakening might be like.

But of course we can describe H20 forever….but it is nicer to actually drink the water.