Can we attain perfection without a Guru

First thing is what is a Guru?

What isn't Guru?

How do you discriminate a real Guru from a fake?

Does such a person exist?

What about the inner-guru?

I think that because we are in illusion only someone who is out of illusion can liberate us. Just like if you are tied up only someone who is untied can liberate you.

Any thoughts ...

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by I-Ching

First thing is what is a Guru?

What isn't Guru?

How do you discriminate a real Guru from a fake?

Does such a person exist?

What about the inner-guru?

I think that because we are in illusion only someone who is out of illusion can liberate us. Just like if you are tied up only someone who is untied can liberate you.

Any thoughts ...

My thoughts are that in liberation terms, Im not sure even the 'gurus' are fully liberated, though I think that they are more liberated than most. I would say they are pointing people towards where they are still going themselves i.e. they are teaching and focused upon what they still want to learn and experience themselves. In this sense, I see it as the somewhat blind leading the very blind!

Originally Posted by andrew g

My thoughts are that in liberation terms, Im not sure even the 'gurus' are fully liberated, though I think that they are more liberated than most. I would say they are pointing people towards where they are still going themselves i.e. they are teaching and focused upon what they still want to learn and experience themselves. In this sense, I see it as the somewhat blind leading the very blind!

I agree that the majority of "Gurus" are not actually enlightened. I would say that Guru in true sense of the word must have attained perfection / enlightenment. A Guru is not just a religious scholar or even a saintly person. But if there is a fake coin, then surely there is real coin?
Surely there must be real Guru's. If there is no real Guru then enlightenment would not be possible. Would God allow that? Surely he wants us to become enlightened.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by I-Ching

I agree that the majority of "Gurus" are not actually enlightened. I would say that Guru in true sense of the word must have attained perfection / enlightenment. A Guru is not just a religious scholar or even a saintly person. But if there is a fake coin, then surely there is real coin?
Surely there must be real Guru's. If there is no real Guru then enlightenment would not be possible. Would God allow that? Surely he wants us to become enlightened.

I do think we are heading towards full liberation or full enlightenment but my opinion is that its more of a collective movement, and that the gurus are basically leading the way. Even though they are still a bit blind, their faith and trust is strong compared to most (and I think this strength of faith and trust is what gives them their relative clarity and freedom), so they point the way trusting that it is the way forward.

My thought is that a guru can be a book, a song, an animal, a tree or an inmate of an asylum. Either way the truth is NOT out there.
I feel that it is too much like the mind to say we need to be liberated by one who is out of illusion. It just seems too contrived.
But in both cases I could be wrong. Good Luck

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by not human

My thought is that a guru can be a book, a song, an animal, a tree or an inmate of an asylum. Either way the truth is NOT out there.
I feel that it is too much like the mind to say we need to be liberated by one who is out of illusion. It just seems too contrived.
But in both cases I could be wrong. Good Luck

I like that point too.

Originally Posted by andrew g

I do think we are heading towards full liberation or full enlightenment but my opinion is that its more of a collective movement, and that the gurus are basically leading the way. Even though they are still a bit blind, their faith and trust is strong compared to most (and I think this strength of faith and trust is what gives them their relative clarity and freedom), so they point the way trusting that it is the way forward.

I'm not sure what "we" you are referring to. I think the majority of humanity accepts atheistic scientists as their gurus and they are certainly not leading us to liberation. I think collectively human society is becoming more materialistic and atheistic.

If don't think a guru who isn't enlightened can communicate fully with God and therefore can't lead humanity properly according to God's Will. I don't think the blind can ever lead the blind properly. Why follow someone who doesn't have full vision? Why not find someone who does?

Originally Posted by not human

My thought is that a guru can be a book, a song, an animal, a tree or an inmate of an asylum. Either way the truth is NOT out there.
I feel that it is too much like the mind to say we need to be liberated by one who is out of illusion. It just seems too contrived.
But in both cases I could be wrong. Good Luck

I agree that we can learn from the world around us. But what about when the mind is disturbed, what about when we are confused or emotional? Often it is difficult to see things objectively when our attachment become threatened. Do you think you may need external Guidance at such a point?

I have genuinely reached out at these times & failed miserably to achieve what my mind desired however I do entertain that I was given what guidance was required at the time.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by I-Ching

I'm not sure what "we" you are referring to. I think the majority of humanity accepts atheistic scientists as their gurus and they are certainly not leading us to liberation. I think collectively human society is becoming more materialistic and atheistic.

I can see what you see here, but I think that there is a silent revolution happening beneath the surface noise of materialism. What is your opinion on quantum science? Do you see it as being more aligned to a spiritual perspective than traditional science? I do.

If don't think a guru who isn't enlightened can communicate fully with God and therefore can't lead humanity properly according to God's Will. I don't think the blind can ever lead the blind properly. Why follow someone who doesn't have full vision? Why not find someone who does?

Im just not sure anyone has full vision but I think that those who are very close to being 'there' communicate effectively enough with God to be able to point the way. I kind of hope so anyway hehe.

I dont follow anyone in particular though. There are many many teachers, masters and gurus that I like and have learned from (and continue to learn from). And as not human suggested, in one way, I think anyone and anything can be a 'guru' for us.