2 Questions for Matthieu Ricard, Tibetan monk

Originally Posted by Samana

endless intellectual speculation

Which is what much of Buddhism is, pure speculation. In this respect, it is no different than any other spiritual tradition, although to adherents of a particular tradition never want to admit that. One of the greatest fears of those traveling a particular path have is that of spiritual relativism. That all paths are the same. That is anathema to anyone attached to any particular school of thought, religion, set of teachings, etc.

But, unfortunately for them, that is the case. No path is any better than any other because the entire concept of enlightenment/liberation/salvation itself is an utter fallacy.

It terms of spirituality, it is the second greatest illusion of all time. Second only to the concept of a God.

[BlueSky]

It terms of spirituality, it is the second greatest illusion of all time. Second only to the concept of a God.


With all due respect..where would you rate “thinking” that you “know” what you described as first and second to be so?
James

Originally Posted by WhiteShaman

It terms of spirituality, it is the second greatest illusion of all time. Second only to the concept of a God.


With all due respect..where would you rate “thinking” that you “know” what you described as first and second to be so?
James

My ranking is only done so in a joking way.

But its interesting that people never seem to get irritated when people speak of their belief in "God" or even their conviction that "enlightenment" is real and can be reached. Expressing disbelief in either of these cherished concepts is likely to make waves though, interestingly enough.

Which goes to show you that "enlightenment" is as a cherished an idea as "God" is. People love to speak about non-attachment, but are unwilling to become unattached to the idea of "enlightenment."

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by LIFE

My ranking is only done so in a joking way.

But its interesting that people never seem to get irritated when people speak of their belief in "God" or even their conviction that "enlightenment" is real and can be reached. Expressly disbelief in either is likely to make waves, interestingly enough.

Which goes to show you that "enlightenment" is as a cherished an idea as "God" is. People love to speak about non-attachment, but are unwilling to become unattached to the idea of "enlightenment."

But then again, if you are right, then you are enlightened to their not being enlightenment...........in which case, you are enlightened.

Originally Posted by WhiteShaman

But then again, if you are right, then you are enlightened to their not being enlightenment...........in which case, you are enlightened.

Which, if you look back, you will see that this is exactly what I said.

This is why I called enlightenment a spiritual pun. It's essentially a paradoxical play on concepts.

There is no enlightenment as its commonly thought of. Realizing this or not doesn't amount to an actual enlightenment.

In this way I was speaking of enlightenment in a facetious way.

Originally Posted by LIFE

In your views, do these individual perspectives of experience eventually disintegrate completely into extinction/annihilation?

For instance, I wake up in the morning and my experience continues. What I call "my experience" real or not, will eventually end completely into eternal and irrevocable nothingness?

We wake up and the "my" experience continues because of memory and habits which have ingrained themselves into out brain physiology and neurology.
Eventually it will dissolve into nothingness.

This completely contradicts Tibetan Buddhism.

The core "continuation principle" of all forms of Buddhism is not cause and effect but dependent origination. The Tibetan Book of the Dead is a good example of this because at any stage in the bardo 'in between' there is the possibility of liberation, even right to the very last moment before rebirth. If cause effect and effect would be at play that would not be possible.

Originally Posted by pre-dawn

We wake up and the "my" experience continues because of memory and habits which have ingrained themselves into out brain physiology and neurology.

In his books, Ricard says that like subtle consciousness, much of memory itself is not exclusively limited to the physical brain but exists independent of it. This, he says, allows for a continuation of experience after death, through the bardo, and into the next life rather seamlesly.

Originally Posted by pre-dawn

Eventually it will dissolve into nothingness.

From that perspective, death is very much real and anxiety about oblivion is not unfounded. People's fears of death stem from the belief that death annihilates any chance for continued experience. If death does annihilate any chance for continued experience, then such trepidation would be justified. Not that it would be constructive, just understandable.

I'm not actually sure how being told you don't exist helps with the suffering of death, either. Death is supposedly one of the sufferings that Buddhism frees one from. How does finding out "you" don't exist make the fact that eventually this continued conscious experience will end into nothingness easier to confront?

Like I said, Buddhism and general materialist/reductionist sentiments are in complete agreement then that death results in eternal and irrevocable oblivion - the END of experience.

Originally Posted by pre-dawn

The core "continuation principle" of all forms of Buddhism is not cause and effect but dependent origination. The Tibetan Book of the Dead is a good example of this because at any stage in the bardo 'in between' there is the possibility of liberation, even right to the very last moment before rebirth. If cause effect and effect would be at play that would not be possible.

And "liberation" is the ending of the cycle of birth and death? Did the cycle of birth and death ever begin?

If the cycle of birth and death never began, it can never end. You can't have one dimension without the other. That would be the equivalent of saying, "everything is up." It is a meaningless, illogical, and impossible to to end a cycle that never began.

[Samana]

The core "continuation principle" of all forms of Buddhism is not cause and effect but dependent origination. The Tibetan Book of the Dead is a good example of this because at any stage in the bardo 'in between' there is the possibility of liberation, even right to the very last moment before rebirth. If cause effect and effect would be at play that would not be possible.

Not entirely accurate because Dependent Origination can be interpreted over one lifetime only, or even in one day. See chapter 5 at the link :

http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/coarise5.htm


The concept of 'Bardo' which is found in the Tibetan Book of the dead, wasn't taught by the Buddha, but was taught in the 8th century by an Indian tantric guru called Padmasambhava who went to Tibet.

There are no 'bardo' teachings in Theravada Buddhism and the Theravada Thai Forest tradition emphasise very pure teachings that are relevant to the present life, rather than waste precious time with endless speculation about rebirth.

Originally Posted by Samana

There are no 'bardo' teachings in Theravada Buddhism and the Theravada Thai Forest tradition emphasise very pure teachings that are relevant to the present life, rather than waste precious time with endless speculation about rebirth.

Yeah, that makes sense. Keep it practical, right?

There will always be that curiosity about death, though. But it is true that as far as the topic of death is concerned, nobody knows.

A samurai once asked Zen Master Hakuin where he would go after he died.
Hakuin answered 'How am I supposed to know?'
'How do you not know? You're a Zen master!' exclaimed the samurai.
'Yes, but not a dead one,' Hakuin answered.

Originally Posted by Samana

... rather than waste precious time...

This is an interesting statement because it is seemingly revealing of an underlying anxiety about death.

The phrase "wasting precious time" seems to reinforce the fact that we tend to view our lives as a constant battle against time. That we're living on "borrowed time", so to speak.

The clock is ticking- tick, tock, tick, tock. Time, and thus your life, is inevitably and inexorably slipping away.

Time is short, so you better focus on getting in right. Pretty soon, time will be up.

Anxiety about "wasting time", and deeper anxiety about the passage of time itself, is really not about time but what time brings. We all know that time will eventually bring death.