Something else is reality instead of ME.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Honza

Everything would be interpreted as being subjective - which is what all the answers in this thread are doing.

The West is littered with references to facts which are outside our control. Which are pre-determined and immutable.

These generalizations of yours are just so wrong on so many levels. You shuffle and arrange these observations to suit your beliefs and level of understanding. You disregard anyone's advice about studying these alternative religions and spiritual traditions that you're so quick to dismiss. Furthermore, you write peoples' replies off as "subjective," implying their comments and insights are of no value or use to you. Even a "Thanks for the replies but I don't agree," would indicate some level of appreciation and humility on your part.

I don't see you as having a crisis of spiritual identity. You seem perfectly happy and comfortable in your mainstream Christian beliefs. Your threads are little more than furtive attempts to denounce anything and everything Eastern and new-age, while supporting and propping up your Christian views. I don't care what people believe. All I'm interested in is sincere and honest dialogue. And that's not what I'm seeing here, sorry.

[Honza]

Originally Posted by Bluegreen

Give examples of pre-determined and immutable facts, please, and what proves that they are indeed facts.

Stop being so silly. Just look up FACT in the dictionary to see what it means. I know there is nothing which is 100% certain, I'm not saying there is. What I am talking about is the difference in emphasis between East & West. The west believes in FACTS whereas the East does not seem to.

A simple fact like planet earth has a moon is considered by the west to be pre-determined and immutable. People take it for granted. However in the East the moon is considered Maya - a projection of ones own mind - so it is not a fact at all.

[Honza]

Originally Posted by Baile

These generalizations of yours are just so wrong on so many levels. You shuffle and arrange these observations to suit your beliefs and level of understanding. You disregard anyone's advice about studying these alternative religions and spiritual traditions that you're so quick to dismiss. Furthermore, you write peoples' replies off as "subjective," implying their comments and insights are of no value or use to you. Even a "Thanks for the replies but I don't agree," would indicate some level of appreciation and humility on your part.

I don't see you as having a crisis of spiritual identity. You seem perfectly happy and comfortable in your mainstream Christian beliefs. Your threads are little more than furtive attempts to denounce anything and everything Eastern and new-age, while supporting and propping up your Christian views. I don't care what people believe. All I'm interested in is sincere and honest dialogue. And that's not what I'm seeing here, sorry.

Hey guy, easy on the attitude. Try analysing your own comments for a change instead of drilling holes in mine. I'm having a discussion here, if you don't like how or why then that is not really my problem, sorry.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by Honza

Stop being so silly. Just look up FACT in the dictionary to see what it means. I know there is nothing which is 100% certain, I'm not saying there is. What I am talking about is the difference in emphasis between East & West. The west believes in FACTS whereas the East does not seem to.

A simple fact like planet earth has a moon is considered by the west to be pre-determined and immutable. People take it for granted. However in the East the moon is considered Maya - a projection of ones own mind - so it is not a fact at all.

Religious beliefs are not about facts. If they were it wouldn't be called a 'faith'. This is a very basic concept.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Honza

Try analysing your own comments for a change instead of drilling holes in mine.

The truth is your East vs West vs New-Age observations are so full of philosophical and factual holes, there's honestly no room left to drill any more. Your explanation about the Eastern view of the moon as Maya and a projection of the mind is just the latest example. Do you want a meaningful and factual dialogue on how each individual religion and spiritual tradition views aspects of material existence? Or is it these sweeping and mostly-incorrect generalizations of yours serve to affirm your current beliefs and understanding, and that's all you're actually interested in here?

[Honza]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

Religious beliefs are not about facts. If they were it wouldn't be called a 'faith'. This is a very basic concept.

Faith does not exclude facts from religion. The trouble with religion is that it is difficult to prove anything, yet many people will uphold that there are spiritual facts. There is spiritual law, spiritual reality, substance, light etc. which may all have a foundation in fact.

[Honza]

Originally Posted by Baile

The truth is your East vs West vs New-Age observations are so full of philosophical and factual holes, there's honestly no room left to drill any more. Your explanation about the Eastern view of the moon as Maya and a projection of the mind is just the latest example. Do you want a meaningful and factual dialogue on how each individual religion and spiritual tradition views aspects of material existence? Or is it these sweeping and mostly-incorrect generalizations of yours serve to affirm your current beliefs and understanding, and that's all you're actually interested in here?

Are they? Well that just goes to show that I don't know everything and that I still have a lot to learn. Obviously I should be sorry for being so ignorant and perhaps keep my mouth shut - and let others do all the talking who know better.

But then again this is one of the ways I learn; by discussing here at SF. If you are so knowledgable then perhaps you can enlighten us all!

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by Honza

Faith does not exclude facts from religion. The trouble with religion is that it is difficult to prove anything, yet many people will uphold that there are spiritual facts. There is spiritual law, spiritual reality, substance, light etc. which may all have a foundation in fact.

I agree religious and spiritual people will often see their beliefs as facts. But as you say they 'may' have a foundation in fact, we don't really know that's why it's a faith. I think it gives us a sense of control to see our beliefs as facts, beyond that I don't see much else use for it. The main power of religion is the personal effect it has, making us better people. That's much more important than feeling in control imo.

Originally Posted by Honza

Stop being so silly. Just look up FACT in the dictionary to see what it means. I know there is nothing which is 100% certain, I'm not saying there is. What I am talking about is the difference in emphasis between East & West. The west believes in FACTS whereas the East does not seem to.

A simple fact like planet earth has a moon is considered by the west to be pre-determined and immutable. People take it for granted. However in the East the moon is considered Maya - a projection of ones own mind - so it is not a fact at all.

The moon is pre-determined and immutable?
Perhaps you should turn to the dictionary.
Pre-determined:
1
a : foreordain, predestine
b : to determine beforehand
2 : to impose a direction or tendency on beforehand

That is a fact? It is an assumption, a belief and not a fact.

Although the general belief is that everything is Maya or illusion, what it really means is that nothing stays the same for even a nanosecond. If something you see has registered on your brain it has already changed so that what you see is not really there anymore.

You are confusing Hindus and New Age people when you say that the moon "is a projection of one's own mind."

Thanks Neville