Saami People of Norway, Finland and Sweden and Joiking

[sentient]

Australian Aboriginals lose ‘colour’ really fast, so the colour of a person’s skin is no indication of that person’s indigenous identity claim.
https://new-cdn.mamamia.com.au/mamam...jpeg?width=656

Here the actress (playing "Mary") is half Finnish half Aboriginal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwzD...annel=ABCiview

But never in a million years did I think it possible that “whites” would fake being Australian Aborigines or of Aboriginal descend. That sort of thing could only happen in America I thought - but no, it is happening:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLSI...yNewsAustralia

[sentient]

Came across this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWd8...annel=Decimali

Well, since Myheritage does not have Saami source population, Finns are the closest match for them and of course all Finns are Saami admixed, some only little, some much more.

But what I found very interesting was this comment by “barguttobed”:

Took from wikipedia
Since the term 'Ancient North Eurasian' refers to a genetic bridge of connected mating networks, scholars of comparative mythology have argued that they probably shared myths and beliefs that could be reconstructed via the comparison of stories attested within cultures that were not in contact for millennia and stretched from the Pontic–Caspian steppe to the American continent.

*

For instance, the mytheme of the dog guarding the Otherworld possibly stems from an older Ancient North Eurasian belief, as suggested by similar motifs found in Indo-European, Native American and Siberian mythology. In Siouan, Algonquian, Iroquoian, and in Central and South American beliefs, a fierce guard dog was located in the Milky Way, perceived as the path of souls in the afterlife, and getting past it was a test. The Siberian Chukchi and Tungus believed in a guardian-of-the-afterlife dog and a spirit dog that would absorb the dead man's soul and act as a guide in the afterlife. In Indo-European myths, the figure of the dog is embodied by Cerberus, Sarvarā, and Garmr. In Zoroastrianism, two four-eyed dogs guard the bridge to the afterlife called Chinvat Bridge. Anthony and Brown note that it might be one of the oldest mythemes recoverable through comparative mythology.

Which brings me to this picture about the Proto-Uralic-worldview, I had posted previously, where that dog is:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig8_271068683

Only the sketch above doesn’t give the sense, the hair-raising feeling of that kind of a situation happening.
This image depicts “getting past the test” better:
https://i.ibb.co/qDnRdSC/alembic-1.jpg

But to put it into the Forest Saami landscape (where through spontaneous ‘distance viewing’ I saw a vision of it) … There is this special deep ravine in that landscape and that ‘blackness’ (like in NDEs … blackness that is the transition stage from one state of awareness to the next), with a point of light at the end of the ravine (not tunnel like in NDEs). And both sides of the ravine are these “ferocious dogs”. They are like embedded into the ravine cliffs (as if dogs of stone, asleep) and if one doesn’t have any fear going through that blackness, they will stay that way and let one pass & then the Light dawns.
Not an NDE, not actual death, but a shamanic initiation where one goes through the same kind of motions …
So, I thought that ravine in the landscape had perhaps been used for that purpose, as a portal & had the war between Russia and Ukraine not started, I would have made an effort to go there and see that ravine irl.

But what are the Siouan, Algonquian, Iroquoian, and in Central and South American beliefs about it?
Never heard of those.

[eezi-ulgen]

Originally Posted by sentient

Not an NDE, not actual death, but a shamanic initiation where one goes through the same kind of motions …
But what are the Siouan, Algonquian, Iroquoian, and in Central and South American beliefs about it?

Well, it seems I don't really know much about the shamanic journey...Or do I ??
I do not know any shamanic practitioners in Life that has explained those things to me...
I do read some from people that claim to be shaman, though I can't make heads or tails if they are real shamanic practitioners or imagination travelers...
I get the sense that people talk on many different levels of dream,vision,subconscious burps,imagination,astral plain, other such dimensions...So it's all a bit confusing to me...
I guess time will tell...

I did try looking into the swan and the milky-way... I see that also in your jpeg..
I thought I read the swan was big medicine in the dying process and has something to do with a big lake in Siberia...

...Peace...

[sentient]

Originally Posted by eezi-ulgen

I did try looking into the swan and the milky-way... I see that also in your jpeg..
I thought I read the swan was big medicine in the dying process and has something to do with a big lake in Siberia...

Yeah, it is both in the Proto-Uralic and in the Saami world-view:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig8_271068683

But now let’s compare it to the Amerind “Mount Bulder’s” (?) view, where at least we can identify the “World Pole/Tree” and the “Thunderbirds” – but is that the “Dog” below???
https://i.ibb.co/d63xKv1/Native-Amer...-Pole-Tree.png

Actually ours should be depicted that way as well (and not like a European 'fairytale' picture), because this is a more correct view, although not entirely, since it doesn't have the Lower World in it.
But I guess the previous Proto-Uralic image just demonstrates also how - when other people interpret 'your' culture, they distort it:


I copied that Amerind "Mount Builders" picture from one of the Andrew Collins related videos – which are really lengthy, but for those interested they are riveting watching/listening.
Cygnus constellation of the Milky Way 34:46 > 48:38 (our Ural area):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCs4...galithomaniaUK

Swans - those go back to The Mal'ta - Buret' culture:
https://donsmaps.com/malta.html

Originally Posted by eezi-ulgen

I get the sense that people talk on many different levels of dream,vision,subconscious burps,imagination,astral plain, other such dimensions...So it's all a bit confusing to me...

They are. Even NDEs leave a lot of room for interpretation. At times for a Christian (subconscious baggage) person the ‘blackness’ (transition stage) represents “Hell” & its demons, what have you - and the subsequent dawning of the Light is seen as Christ coming to save one into “Heaven”, because one is Christian. Not realizing that almost everybody goes through the same scenario from blackness into Light.

And these OBEs, visions, dreams, spontaneous trance journeys only seem to give glues – so, they give as many answers as they raise questions.
Here I would caution people though – to explore one’s own subconscious (baggage) & not some other culture’s subconscious ‘heritage’. I am unlikely to see for example a “platapus” as a guardian symbol into some other worlds …. unless I had actually been initiated or something into the “Platapus Totemic Dreaming” … (whatever that now might be???)
But people do idolize other culture’s spiritual heritage, especially Amerind – which I guess is what a Buddhist teacher called “spiritual materialism” - that somehow, if we transplant some other people’s spirituality into our heads, we then become “spiritual” – not realizing we are that already – everybody is - no matter who we are, indigenous or non.

But of course, through Ancient North Eurasian ANE-dna (heritage baggage), we do get some overlap with Amerinds (if that map link shows):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien...tension).p ng

[sentient]

From Kalevala, here the ‘shaman Väinämöinen’ is doing some ‘soul retrieval’, I assume - into the land of the dead.
The Swan is there and is that the “Black Dog” sitting on the bow of the boat in that River of the Lower World?

“Väinämöinen in Tuonela” by Joseph Alanen:

[sentient]

P.S.
The source for this image:
https://i.ibb.co/d63xKv1/Native-Amer...-Pole-Tree.png

... was from 1:07:00 >:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxZ8...galithomaniaUK

Had I posted this before?

[sentient]

Originally Posted by eezi-ulgen

I did try looking into the swan and the milky-way... I see that also in your jpeg..
I thought I read the swan was big medicine in the dying process and has something to do with a big lake in Siberia...

For Buryats at Lake Baikal, Siberia, a swan is a totemic ancestor.
For Skolt Saami, Swan -the bringer of Light - is a Holy bird.

*

Although I am not convinced about all the claims Collins makes about the Denisovans, however this sounds true:

https://www.andrewcollins.com/page/a...ery_cygnus.htm
Cygnus can be found in the centre of the Milky Way, universally seen in past ages as a road or river of stars used by the dead, or the shaman in a state of trance. In ancient cosmology the Milky Way was equated with the World Tree, around which curled a serpent and on top was a celestial bird. In shamanic tradition worldwide, this World Tree had to be ascended to reach the celestial abode, or sky-world, either via the Milky Way or the north-south meridian line. It was a realm accessed via a hole, door or gate at its most northerly point, and often this was seen as being located someone in the proximity of the cosmic axis, marked by the bird at the top of the tree, which we can safely identify as the Cygnus constellation.
Between c. 16,000-15,000 BC Deneb was Pole Star.

“For Finno Ugrics the water birds, especially swans symbolize the human souls. We may know this because these are still living mythologies employed as spiritual maps for contemporary shamans. The connection between swans and human souls is indisputable. The same birds are strongly associated with the world of the dead”.

In the old Karelian-Hunter-Gatherer graves swan wings were found, children for example had been wrapped in a swan wings.
That is the old belief.
Haven’t had any spontaneous journey visions of them.
However – in that ‘transition stage’ - ‘the river of total ‘blackness’ where the ferocious black ‘guard dogs’ are - the presence of the swan is not like a siren leading one’s soul astray but one that gives faith and serenity to trust the process and calmly cross that ‘black river’ into the Light.

I am not sure whether the Forest Saami has that ferocious dog guarding the underworld or did the vision project that old (collective subconscious) view into their ravine landscape (?)
Still, at the Karelian Lake Onega (swan cult) region of Russia where 42% of the rock carvings are of swans belonged to the pre-Saami/Karelians collectively, so it is a blurry cultural boundary:
https://i0.wp.com/www.terrain.org/wp...pg?w=540&ssl=1

However, according to the “Path of Souls: The Native American Death Journey” (which may or may not originate from the Ancient North Eurasian beliefs) … souls that successfully made the transition to the Path of Souls experienced adversary. The adversary is said to be located at the spot where the Milky Way splits into two sides or paths, which is the Dark Rift, the Dark River of the Milky Way. At the brightest star Deneb of the Cygnus Constellation this adversary aimed at scaring the soul was encountered and for some tribes it was a ferocious dog or dogs.
The final destination of souls was the North Pole star area or Ceneb/Swan, but “between c. 16,000-15,000 BC Deneb was Pole Star”.

There are also differences from where the soul is supposed to leave the body. Some Taoist say it is the 3rd eye, in some other beliefs it is the crown chakra area, for us I trust, it was/is the on top of the head but towards the back which attuned our soul’s direction to the Polaris, the Celestial North Star.

[sentient]

Now, I have got no problem accepting the Christian message, the Light as Christ Consciousness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK4T...ghaWorldwi de

… but if the realization of one’s True Self, the – “I AM THAT” – is recognizing that we too are that light, like “Wow! I’m a swan! – who would have thunk it!” - that is also good.
(Isn't the swan the symbol for nonduality also (?).

Guidance, through symbology shows us what we will personally be able to understand and on the level we can comprehend it.
Also, that symbology shows us ‘who we are’ (on the subconscious-cultural-baggage level) as somebody had said:
"We all have a song in us, it tells us who we are".

[eezi-ulgen]

Originally Posted by sentient

Here I would caution people though – to explore one’s own subconscious (baggage) & not some other culture’s subconscious ‘heritage’. I am unlikely to see for example a “platapus” as a guardian symbol into some other worlds ….

Exactly...That is why I said it is hard for me to read people that say they have this Spirit animal our Spirit guide and went through such and such initiation...
Or maybe received a certificate for attending a weekend course in shamanism...
The interwebs are full of what brings up suspicion in me...
Though I usually don't like calling people out about anything...
This also is why I have no idea what a shamans journey really is...
SomE I think they had a dream or a vivid imagination or indigestion...IDK...
I really wouldn't care, but I do have the Asian DNA that makes me want to find some things out
but the interwebs is a hard place to sift through...
I realize the interwebs is not ideal for finding out things in a real way...
Experience is the real teacher...

...Peace...

[eezi-ulgen]

sentient
That's some real good stuff on the dog and the swan...(I have 3 stars and 3 swans on a family crest, Hmm??)
I wonder what the story is I am suppose to know by that??
The stars have been the story book for all people from all the way back to where they could first see the stars...

The void and the Light of Spirit, must also have so many stories to tell and pass down that knowledge too...