Meditation as it is

[Unseeking Seeker]

@ Gem ~ I agree that God, if a concept, a theory, a belief system, an affirmation described in a religious or scripture text, yes, in that case, it becomes blind faith perhaps, a crutch to hold onto. However, rather than being an atheist, which takes a firm cynical position, if we approach life as an agnostic, open and receptive to whatever appears and then recognition of God dawns as an epiphany, what then?

In my case, I studied in an engineering college and we were taught to analyse everything, thus left brained. Weigh it, size it or infer by data, if abstract. As such, although born in a traditional Hindu family and having studied in a Catholic school, I was yet drawn toward Buddhist concepts of silence and emptiness. However, when came a time that exhausted with fickle fate, I turned my attention inward, that I first experienced definitive magnetism (kundalini, chi, Holy Spirit) and engaged in unmistakable telepathic communication with a wise formless presence, we may take as a spirit guide or master. Why, even in the inky black void experience of oneness, where there was a communication with a ‘higher’ being, let’s say that too was not God but a teacher perhaps.

When offered an experience, we embrace it but later analyse.

Anyway, suffice to say, not only I but a few friends of mine have ‘seen’ God in a realisation that is unmistakable. The knowing however, even if shared, how will it help someone who has not seen, who is perhaps sceptical, who being yet in lower mind, will dismiss it as fanciful imagination induced by self-hypnosis?

In fact, let’s drop below God-level and speak of anything at all. The tendency, reflex reaction, is to hold our view as valid and the other persons as invalid. Is it not so?

Take kundalini. The one who has experienced, who has been energised, he knows. For someone who has not experienced, it is just a fanciful concept.

Then bliss. Bliss in permanence, just like our breath, independent of external circumstances. Those who have imbibed and assimilated, it’s true for them but not for others.

Then singularity, be it samadhi (passive but vibrant) and Self (living light eternal) ~ valid for those who have been, seen and so known but not so for those who haven’t.

Yet lower, silence where there is no thought but we are, as we are, poised in stillness, attention animated in agendalessness, receptive, cognisant, mindful, watchful ~ for those who cannot imagine cessation of thought, it is an impossibility.

Then meditation itself. Is it breath watching, a yogic kriya, a silent chant, entering trance, a prayer, a melding with the sunset, lovers holding hands, dissolving in the fragrance of a rose ~ all these and more with imagined volition or imagined non-volition? If someone suggests a visualisation, is it meditation or is it not? Are the Vijnana Bhairava Tantra 112 meditations valid or is it all gibberish?

It would appear that we each pat ourselves in the back, holding our doing or non-doing as the only path. But it isn’t like that. No. All riverlets flowing down the mountain join the river which flows into the ocean.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

the river which flows into the ocean.

First, what I already said, 'different meditations' are good because they have their own respective purposes and benefits.

Regarding the different kinds of experience, energy, bliss and so on, unless it is the experience as you experience it, it can't be observed. You can only actually be aware of 'this' experience as it is.

What I'm talking about is different to that. IOW, I'm not talking about a lot of different things, but a very particular thing that is universal in nature - like if you say the rivulets go to the sea, I say sure, because gravity is universal. Likewise, all experiences are individual, but change is universal. Awareness is universal, attention is universal. It's not about the different things, but the universals.

I'm not going down that path of there is God. People name the Tao, so to speak, and that discussion is semantic.

This isn't a discussion reserved for the great masters. This is a regular talk for everyday people, and it makes no difference if your heart opened to the divine or you have a hard solid chest. That makes no difference to your practice- what you practice. The skill is ardent awareness with equanimity of mind.

The faith I was suggesting isn't a faith in God, or no faith in God. I only use 'God' as conventional figure of speech to convey meaning. I only suggested having faith that the quality of enlightenment is within you, and trusting in nature's way. We could say 'nature's way' is 'the will of God' (as opposed to your own will). The rivulets go to the sea because that's nature's way. I'm speaking of the latter and saying 'so what' to the former.

I think meditation as breath watching is probably the best, but that develops into full body awareness both all over and right through, and from the physical surface to the subtle origins; through which the mind is also revealed. It is at least best for me to talk about that because that's what I know about. Another object like the inner sound is fine and possibly more powerful in terms of farrout states, though body awareness is most probably the best approach for the purpose of purification. It's more holistic, but it's harder because disruptive reactivity arises at the point of felt sensations. I see no way of bypassing the life-form as a whole.

It's not like I throw out a list of different things and say all goes into the sea. It's more like I 'splain space-time curvature so you understand why it is that way. I realise people don't notice it because it's kinda unheard of and people are generally dually geared to argue counterpoints, and of course, what I say contradicts most teachers (but not greats such as Ramana, Papaji or Nisargadatta). I also know it's more popular to talk of uber-spirutual states and stuff, but I'm a regular bloke just like anyone on the bus, and levels of experience, beliefs, religion, culture is irrelevant to truths that are universal.

I'm not going to pretend that all views are equally valid. It's really just being able to explain how you came to the view and if those steps actually stack up. For example, 'Jesus is God' has no steps. Someone told you, you believe it. That's all it is. There's no reason behind it. The Muslims and Jews disagree. Period. That's all. Next. It doesn't matter. On the the other hand, you are aware, you are breathing, experience is changing, life has both pleasure and pain, you were born and will die... These are universal. Different people of different religions all agree. These are not Buddhist feelings, Christian feelings or Atheist feelings. We all feel different things, and in each moment feel it differently, but everyone feels, it comes and goes, and there's no two ways about it.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

It's taoistic, but the way to control everything is to not control anything

(I don't believe in God, BTW, but it's a handy figure of speech)

Yes I understand the concept ‘ let go let god’ I’ve used it many times as a reminder that life/universe/consciousness has and is a bigger working order that is not for me to control. Through a self reflective state, I also understand that it symbolises my own full surrender to self. To open and allow what moves in me to be noticed and aware of, without control.

In hindsight I see it too was a supportive tool, to trust to let go of stuff which was hard to let go of. To stand fully in that ‘space’ of ‘nothing to hold onto’, was very disarming but a much needed step in my process to feel more freely and not caught up in this way in myself.

Definitely all about trust. Deep trust to let things unravel, unfold and move with change in this way.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

‘ let go let god’ - a bigger working order that is not for me to control. Through a self reflective state - it symbolises my own full surrender to self. To open and allow what moves in me to be noticed and aware of, without control. I see it too was a supportive tool, to trust to let go of stuff which was hard to let go of. To stand fully in that ‘space’ of ‘nothing to hold onto’, was very disarming but a much needed step in my process Deep trust to let things unravel, unfold and move with change

I run the risk of rattling on, but it's just thoughts and it's only entertainment.

Anyway, when I say 'let go' I don't really mean that's what you do. It just means stop holding on and holding back, the way you have before and still tend to. I just say 'let God' because 'trust natures way' might not come across as well. I don't mean there is a God you have to trust in. It's just Trust.

In my own training under Buddhist tradition it's called 'taking refuge', which is a bigger picture because you only trust when you think it's safe, though you might still think there is a risk, yet also know your security can be clung to with unwillingness toward change.

It also comes back to my earlier posts about the right conditions since you'd be worse off trusting anyone who doesn't sincerely have your best interests at heart. If people are more like they want something out of you, they aren't trustworthy. If people treat you right and they don't want anything in return, then you could probably turn to them for 'refuge' since they are safe and trustworthy and want what's best for you.

The purification is very probably going to bring up crises, so what we call 'refuge', which is trust, is pretty much necessary - internally toward yourself, externally toward others that support you and toward the way nature does things.

IOW, 'let go' depends on trust. It sounds fuzzy and wise to say 'let go and let God', but IRL, that has several dimensions.

To open and allowing moves in you is very skilled, and I get the sense that it's actually real in your life. I claim that's what is practiced so of course I'm all for it. I'm OK with it, not the greatest, but enough to realise it's for the best. I've been to high and low places, and always came back to being still no matter what happens. My recent lot has been easier because the overall movement RN is love opening the heart. It started quite a while ago and stuck around, but it came about at a time when my life is in upheaval and I have lots on my mind. It's two sided. The internal is all roses while the external is all thorns. I'm in situation which is outside my wheelhouse that I never saw coming, but no biggie. It's fine. It's actually for the best and I'm glad. It's just that what's for the best can sometimes be a bit rough, and that's just how things go.

[JustBe]

I think knowing you bounce back from deeper processors supports trust. Even so deeper processors, can be quite difficult and icky stuff when you see external changes that rock you quite profoundly. So, until you see the light in the dark of yourself it can be very challenging with difficult life experiences. Internally as you say, you can know you’ll always bounce back, find your sweet spot, once you understand your essence never leaves you, once you understand where peace of being lives. That is the gift of opening in yourself that deep, but still, life on the outside does and will not always be as we want or believe we need sadly.

In those sudden unexpected moments in life, those bigger profound shifts of change, I think you learn to feel more freely whatever your experience opens. When the cork has been pulled, I’ve learned that it’s an opportunity to let processors be felt and attended too, without old patterns taking over. The body naturally moving through things without containment of those old patterns.

I’ve had many revisiting moments to remind me, to just feel, get out of my head, let go of worry and come back to my resting place. Those very close to home heart places, often the trigger and without them, I don’t think we can learn to ground deeper and stronger. They often become the meeting place within us, that means the most. For me protective measures come with actions to move accordingly and take care of myself through conscious actions. I can no longer protect my being from ‘feeling’ and struggles one with the greater world. The day the light went out in the old way, was the marker the new way could never be reversed.

I find it hard at times to be open and clear and aware, I struggle with some places in my heart thst remember old wounds. Old lives, deep losses, traumatic ones too. I know now, they are reminders and when I visit those places, sometimes it’s just threads lingering, or reminders to feel, let go and pull my socks up. Not feel it’s the ‘end of my world’ where I’ll never that sweet spot.

It’s a gift to be able to feel fully in this body and not run from myself. Running towards life feels much healthier.

Anyway I’m running off to my movement class. Time to pick up my weights and punch the air. Feel my disdain for step ups but do it anyway.. lol

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by JustBe

once you understand your essence never leaves you, once you understand where peace of being lives.

personally, I've sought to learn not to try to rely on even this, or to think unequivocally that I can have it and it will always be mine, and use that as a comfort.

because quite honestly even things like this have been gtorn from my grasp more often than not.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

personally, I've sought to learn not to try to rely on even this, or to think

because quite honestly even things like this have been gtorn from my grasp more often than not.

I look at those torn moments as my own tearing away inside. sometimes those deeper tears can signal ‘big’ process but knowing all things come to pass in this way, you get on with things if you deal with it. How you deal sbd heal is your own process of course.

Some people function in survival mode in difficult situations, sometimes that’s all there is, getting by and through to tend to their basic needs. The rest is shelved but more often than not most have to check the contents of such actions in their own way and time.

I don’t see peace as something to maintain in my thoughts. For me true healing moves me through it all and out the other side most naturally.

I think when you’ve accessed this within through process, you naturally allow things to fall away and fall back into place. It’s a natural flow..

Transmuting the fullness of its reaction.

Often there are lessons in understanding how you feel when things are torn from us, even peace can activate such things.

[Gem]

The perspective I try to get across isn't a thing that stays with you or gets torn away. That is always going to happen in the experience of living, loving and passing away, but the unsaid thing isn't even a sense of awareness that supposedly doesn't come and go.

Without substance, it's hard to communicate, but it is a reason why we don't want to elicit desire as if something wonderful is going to happen. Of course something wonderful will happen, so what? Something awful will happen too, big deal.

'This' is happening - that's how it is. Watching, be aware. You soon see how the mind works to distract you from reality.

Is mind now thinking something like 'there's got to be more to it that that'? Well, there's lots of refinements, it requires attention, the skillful balance can be more stable, the attention can more piercing, but awareness of 'this' is what's possible.

Awareness and attention is already known in the most immediate sense. It's just distraction and reaction that prevents being conscious of the moment you actually live in. You can be determined, breathe without faltering, and no matter what happens, aversion toward some things and craving for another thing is not allowed to draw attention from the moment that life actually lives.

[Gem]

My theory is, if a person has their own underlying understanding, they can discern for themselves. The trouble is, philosophical understanding in this context comes from reflection on experience (insight). There's a symbiosis of these two elements - not two separate things - so the philosophical background doesn't make much sense in the absence of practice. However, there is no compass for practice other than one's understanding. Seems like a catch-22, but it's more like they go together.

I'm just an average guy, so there's no reason to believe that what I say is authoritative. I consider that an advantage because I don't like how authoritative influence encourages blind obedience. The notion, for examples, that it must be right because Buddha said so or because it's in the Gospels, has no understanding behind it. My view is a person has to be guided by their own understanding and discernment.

Reason can be watertight and well thought through, but wisdom is a weird internal factor that transforms a person and is a continual refinement. The subject of what is true, assuming a seeker is trying to find out what is true, is pertinent to wisdom. Reason is more like a join-the-dots drawing that mentally clarifies a bigger picture. Wisdom is opposed to foolishness, whereas reason is opposed to 'makes no sense'.

The initial 'lesson' is reason. The seeker hears it, thinks it through, and is like, Huh, I get it - Makes perfect sense. When the teacher gives instruction, the seeker can assess if it coheres to or defies reason. If the method remains consistent with your understanding, then you're going by what YOU understand. Otherwise, the teacher explains one thing and you understand it, but then instructs contrary to that understanding. Hence, instead moving according to the understanding you have, you slip into the docile obedience of, 'Teacher knows, so I'll just do what he says'.

My teacher (I had a few along the way) explains everything to make sure students understand why they practice in a particular way. As the student progresses insightfully, philosophical explanations become more nuanced. Should a student have a quandary about something, teach can elaborate on any questioned detail. If the student doesn't get it, or determines it makes no sense, then they put it aside without adopting it. Maybe later they mighr see how it fits in. This holds teachers to a high standard, and any means of further refinement he gives be like, 'Ah, I see what you mean'. That can happen in pure reason, but usually happens as a 'lightbulb moment'.

My teacher explained things to me years ago that I never adopted. I keep an open mind, but it's not my own understanding, so it doesn't guide me. Maybe one day I'll realise how it 'fits'. Maybe not. It might just be nonsense.

I'm not a teacher and don't want to because I'm completely unqualified and the dedication involved is too immense for me. It's just that I saw the value and importance of ensuring everything a seeker does is self-determined (not blind or obedient). Therefore, I adopted this way of talking about the subject.

This doesn't mean the way I'd suggest approaching a practice (my way) is the only way. That's not what Buddha meant by, 'This is the one and only way...'. "The one and only way" pertains to remaining consistent with the way nature actually works. Various means are consistent with that. Conversely, other means are inconsistent. Due to ease, comfort, economics, popularity, influence, station, adulation, reverence and other aspects of human desire, a large portion of methods on the market fall within an 'inconsistent' category. Not a big deal. A large number of them are good for you, and many more are consistently specific to particular purposes. Since it's not 'bad', and it is 'good', I don't discourage it. It's only a matter of refinement.

Mindfulness is not specifically purposed. It has interrelated multi-purposes which can be summed up by saying: By staying on the path of truth you can overcome all sorrows and be purified and liberated.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Often there are lessons in understanding how you feel when things are torn from us, even peace can activate such things.

that is kinda what I feel about it when I get into the state where I'm not so aware of what I know. Like it has been 'torn away'. I think in other lives I've gone from there to build something back up... now I wonder if there is another way? Perhaps some way of living in the space where things are 'torn away' instead of trying to go backto my peace?

But I guess that oversimplifies what I think about it...