The practical side of religious/spiritual beliefs

Originally Posted by The Eagle

why did you feel the need to post this - it has no relevence??? OK

now you are getting defensive. and judging below - you are unable to explain your point logically. (just an added note - the predetermined future was to end at point B - so nothing suceeds C ) OK
i can simplify it for you - there is one type of energy - lets call it "energy" OK

all of the above that you say is illusions - perhaps not as they can still be energy - but i have my own beliefs of the source of those things. OK

as for "beyond our ability to directly sense" - then one, how do you know it exists, and two, why have you not put this part in the "illusion" category exactly?? i AM SURE YOU MUST HAVE A CRITERIA IN WHICH YOU ASSESS INFORMATION (woops caps lock on).
I know it exists because someone before me has attained it ( and yes this is a belief) Like when you begin to learn a subject you have a text book, and then you move on through greater and greater levels of complexity. All learning has the next stage as beyond our current stage, would you agree?

So using maths as an example, you begin to learn your two times table, when you start, 12 twos equalling 24 might seem illussionary to you, but to the next grade it is childs play.

So 1) we must accept the book or teacher, and 2) we must evaluate what we know, for example why not just say 12 twos equal 48, and then add, because this is the way I choose to view it? You can believe your right your whole life, but the truth is, the teacher tells you your not.


(perhaps it would be better to call it something other than "light" - as "light" has a definition already.....??) Yes I agree terminology can be easily confusing



firstly your example is not relevent to your claim that these things can happen simultaneously. secondly all you have done is demonstrate the illusion of free will - not free will. remember the predetermined future was to end up at point B. the whole point of a. b and c happening simulataneously is a psychological one. A = SELF, B = Forces external to oneself controlling outcome. C = Destination

i will give you a clue - to demonstrate free will you need to show there is actually an option of ending up at point B and point C. This is lineal thought unless you have that in your example then you have not demonstrated free will exists. Where do you think free will exists? therefore you can claim a loosly predetermined future by saying you either end up at point B or C - but you cant be specific if free will exists. if you say you can end up at point C - then a predetermined future of ending up at point B did not exist. its pretty simple.

let me ask - why do you need/want a predetermined future AND free will to exist? why cant you just have one of them? We have to come to a point where we are shattered of the illussion of self as central control, this is simply to allow one to exit from themself and create a world of mutual support. All the while man thinks he is responsible and should do a better job only perpetuates judgement to that what is external to himself.

Pre-determined means that all that was, all that is, and all that will be, is already created. Free will means that an individual has the possibility of recognising this fact. Can you see these two co-existing?

just linking the free will discussion into the thread topic - having both free will and predetermined future is a religious based idea - that whatever god it is - is all powerful and all knowing -It is forbidden to personify God, God is a force but can't be blamed for the bad things that go on in the world, There are no bad things, thats the point of simultaneous ABChence the god must "allow" free will so humans can make mistakes. There are no mistakes. Free will begins to emerge when one begins to ask beyond the normal functioning of this world, what is my purpose, why am I here? Free will is the intention to give over and above ones own needs.the practical and logical application of either idea - means its one or the other and you can't have both.



this does not make sense. not meaning to be offensive it sounds like you are rolling off "spiritual spiel" and not fully understanding what you are saying. - thats just my opinion from what you are saying of course.

IS that a little clearer?

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

i know it exists because someone before me has attained it ( and yes this is a belief).

if its a belief then you dont know it? - should you put that into the "illusion" category with the gods and ghosts that other peole believe in?? - but your belief is true - thiers is not.........

anway who do you refer to?

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

Like when you begin to learn a subject you have a text book, and then you move on through greater and greater levels of complexity. All learning has the next stage as beyond our current stage, would you agree?

So using maths as an example, you begin to learn your two times table, when you start, 12 twos equalling 24 might seem illussionary to you, but to the next grade it is childs play.

So 1) we must accept the book or teacher, and 2) we must evaluate what we know, for example why not just say 12 twos equal 48, and then add, because this is the way I choose to view it? You can believe your right your whole life, but the truth is, the teacher tells you your not.

lol - maths is logic based. it has set rules to learn - and brings you into understanding of the answer according to the set rules of maths.

anyway we are talking about the universe - not defined maths questions - as a side note interestingly, we have observed something to do with black holes where there is actaully an occasion where 4+4=9. i am sure you can find it out.

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

the whole point of a. b and c happening simulataneously is a psychological one. A = SELF, B = Forces external to oneself controlling outcome. C = Destination.

but that was not what was asked. your answer was not relevent to the question put to you. the destinations were point "B" or point "C". - "A" was you, the present - B and C the future.

if mine was lineal thought - how would you describe yours considering the fact you have described the future as lineal with no deviation?

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

Where do you think free will exists?

free will exists as part of our conciousness - because we are concious and it only exists in the present.

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

We have to come to a point where we are shattered of the illussion of self as central control, this is simply to allow one to exit from themself and create a world of mutual support. ?

we dont have to come to any point - you are sounding like a religious fanatic demanding one true god...... while removing personal responsibility for your actions.

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

All the while man thinks he is responsible and should do a better job only perpetuates judgement to that what is external to himself.

so? why are you so scared of judgement of the external?

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

Pre-determined means that all that was, all that is, and all that will be, is already created.

well that is plain illogical when you apply free will - i.e. the ability to choose an outcome. predetermined means every decision has already been set out and cannot change.

however i will throw you a bone - all that was, all that is and that will be - is already created - yes if you consider energy and that everything is created from energy that already exists. however when you apply all that has been created to future free will choices - it becomes illogical - a choice has not already been made if free will exists. so thats why i say we shape energy with our free will - but thats distinctly different from a predetermined future.

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

Free will means that an individual has the possibility of recognising this fact. Can you see these two co-existing??

you are adding things on to the definition of free will.

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

It is forbidden to personify God, God is a force

who forbids it exactly??

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

Free will begins to emerge when one begins to ask beyond the normal functioning of this world, what is my purpose, why am I here? Free will is the intention to give over and above ones own needs

i am reminded of your maths teacher example - try an English teacher - your definition is incorrect.........

the oxford dictionary definition for you:

Free Will: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion

Predetermined: establish or decide in advance

Fate:
[mass noun] the development of events outside a person’s control, regarded as predetermined by a supernatural power:
[count noun] the course of someone’s life , or the outcome of a situation for someone or something, seen as outside their control:
[in singular] the inescapable death of a person:

perhaps if you could not follow the practical example the definitions will show you that a predetermined future and free will cannot co-exist.

[hybrid]

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

I have explored myself and many avenues of 'spirituality'. From this I have found a method that is practical, scientific and free from many of the illussionary, abstract forms that constituted many of the paths that i followed. I am here to share the practical application of that method ......... Basically Mutual support and inter-dependency, in an integral system.

I am here to present ideas, to offer new perspectives, to interact, exchange and to as much as possible help to create a cohesive force that supports one anothers idividuality.

I am well aware that this is a big task, as there are big egos present, I can feel them working on their replies as I write, and that is great as it gives us an opportunity to 'go above' these and connect. If there is even once that we fall into assasinating another I would like to see such an owerwhelming show of solidairity that support becomes the catch phrase before and behind every act, it goes before ones greatest need to be right at the expense of lowering ones friend.
There is a single need in each individual that another can help with, and that is to 'lift their spirits', this is the only thing we can realiably know about another, and this work is sufficient not only to last your entire life, but to move mankind into a spiritual world.
Sharing, challenging, checking, debating, all our essential if together we are to be able to move as one. NO ONE has the answer, but EVERY-ONE does.

I am here because I loved all of the spiritual practices I followed, In everyone I was searching like there was no tomorrow, I greatly appreciated what came before as it gave me the fuel to enter now.

There is no guru in me, the more i know the less I know, there is a dogmatic, belligerant, stubborn, opinionated fool inside me, and as much as I can muster I yearn for Love to cover all of this.

thank you and i believe you.

maybe the better approach although less spiritual is to stop watching to assess one's motive but to just simply ask ,,,,

Not quite sure what you meant by this, but for me the ask is a cry, and absolutly if you do not ask then you do not get.

what i meant is instead of second guessing your intention as to why you are here, it is much simple just to ask.

[Xan]

PaulChapmanTasmania: I beg to differ. I would say that quantum physics does not have the correct basis to formulate its theories yet.
Mystics usually speak from spiritual attainment, which means without a direct guide what is interpreted from their writings is incorrect.

That is correct. Without direct experience of the inherent connectedness in existence one's interpretations will always be mere ideas.


Tell me what does that awareness within of interconnectedness give you?

The feeling of interconnection is a sense of wholeness, contentment, equanimity, love for-no-reason, compassion, and sometimes unexplainable joy.


We can't 'learn' how to connect because that attempt keeps us in the mental realm of disconnection, I love this observation, and would you say it was accurate? I would to a degree, I would also add feeling.

Yes.. if you're talking about feeling that is emotion from the mind. It's our over-involvement with surface mind activity that veils our natural connectedness from our own awareness.


This indicates the current reality that we cannot connect, eventually this will lead to despair and from this despair we learn as Hybrid said to truly ask from the heart. A true prayer is the hearts desire.

Yes... the despair of living without connection, without consistent love, drives us further on.

But you should use the term "we cannot connect" loosely because many people these days are experiencing spiritual awakening, which ultimately is this connection.


It is the exertion to connect to others that draws 'light' that corrects the very nature of humanity, this cannot be done internally. It is required to come out of oneself to know oneself.

I beg to differ. We cannot really connect to others until we are connected internally. The world is full of people 'trying' to connect but it fails because they are trying from a place of disconnection within themselves.


The change is a psychological one to start. We change from what is in it for me, to what can i do for another.

This is only a surface appearance of connection, from my good feeling about my unselfishness to helping each other. Then what happens when you're not in that sort of activity? The only way interconnectedness can be and is constant is in our inner being.


And we start with internal connection, just thinking about connecting to others, thinking about supporting them.

Well, thinking may seem more internal that physicality and doing, but is not the inner being at all... which is beyond the thinking mind.

Giving support to others is great, but it's not the sense of connection I'm pointing toward.


I am sure you know form you own observations that there is plenty of separative material to work on within yourself when you view the outside world. And if there isn't pray that you will begin to see it.

I tend to see separative patterns in myself rather observing the outside world, but it doesn't matter how they are noticed.... only that they are recognized to be "not what I want" and a new choice made.

I might add that how we view life comes from our own experiences and attitudes. When we experience connectedness/wholeness/oneness, that forms our view of the outer world as well... effortlessly.


Xan

Originally Posted by Xan

PaulChapmanTasmania: I beg to differ. I would say that quantum physics does not have the correct basis to formulate its theories yet.
Mystics usually speak from spiritual attainment, which means without a direct guide what is interpreted from their writings is incorrect.

That is correct. Without direct experience of the inherent connectedness in existence one's interpretations will always be mere ideas.


Tell me what does that awareness within of interconnectedness give you?

The feeling of interconnection is a sense of wholeness, contentment, equanimity, love for-no-reason, compassion, and sometimes unexplainable joy.


We can't 'learn' how to connect because that attempt keeps us in the mental realm of disconnection, I love this observation, and would you say it was accurate? I would to a degree, I would also add feeling.

Yes.. if you're talking about feeling that is emotion from the mind. It's our over-involvement with surface mind activity that veils our natural connectedness from our own awareness.


This indicates the current reality that we cannot connect, eventually this will lead to despair and from this despair we learn as Hybrid said to truly ask from the heart. A true prayer is the hearts desire.

Yes... the despair of living without connection, without consistent love, drives us further on.

But you should use the term "we cannot connect" loosely because many people these days are experiencing spiritual awakening, which ultimately is this connection.


It is the exertion to connect to others that draws 'light' that corrects the very nature of humanity, this cannot be done internally. It is required to come out of oneself to know oneself.

I beg to differ. We cannot really connect to others until we are connected internally. The world is full of people 'trying' to connect but it fails because they are trying from a place of disconnection within themselves.


The change is a psychological one to start. We change from what is in it for me, to what can i do for another.

This is only a surface appearance of connection, from my good feeling about my unselfishness to helping each other. Then what happens when you're not in that sort of activity? The only way interconnectedness can be and is constant is in our inner being.


And we start with internal connection, just thinking about connecting to others, thinking about supporting them.

Well, thinking may seem more internal that physicality and doing, but is not the inner being at all... which is beyond the thinking mind.

Giving support to others is great, but it's not the sense of connection I'm pointing toward.


I am sure you know form you own observations that there is plenty of separative material to work on within yourself when you view the outside world. And if there isn't pray that you will begin to see it.

I tend to see separative patterns in myself rather observing the outside world, but it doesn't matter how they are noticed.... only that they are recognized to be "not what I want" and a new choice made.

I might add that how we view life comes from our own experiences and attitudes. When we experience connectedness/wholeness/oneness, that forms our view of the outer world as well... effortlessly.


Xan

Awesome observations. I do not as yet understand, but i hope to have more and more from you in that a little bit i will come to 'feel' what and where you are coming from.

ThankYou

Originally Posted by hybrid

thank you and i believe you.

[color=DarkSlateBlue][i]

what i meant is instead of second guessing your intention as to why you are here, it is much simple just to ask.

OK. How do I do this?

[Xan]

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

I do not as yet understand, but i hope to have more and more from you in that a little bit i will come to 'feel' what and where you are coming from.

ThankYou

Good answer, Paul... and thank you the openness to begin to hear.


Xan

Eagle you are probably way to clever for me. I will attempt to explain, but not sure if i am able.

Originally Posted by The Eagle

anway who do you refer to? Kabbalists. In particular Baal HaSulam.

lol - maths is logic based. it has set rules to learn - and brings you into understanding of the answer according to the set rules of maths.

anyway we are talking about the universe - not defined maths questions - as a side note interestingly, we have observed something to do with black holes where there is actaully an occasion where 4+4=9. i am sure you can find it out. From My understanding I can see reason into that equation


but that was not what was asked. your answer was not relevent to the question put to you. the destinations were point "B" or point "C". - "A" was you, the present - B and C the future. I tried to explain according to my understanding, perhps you could re-read it a few times with an intention to be me, to be in my thoughts and intention?

if mine was lineal thought - how would you describe yours considering the fact you have described the future as lineal with no deviation? Past, present & future are all one in spirituality, there is no time. A = Left, B = Right C= middle.
A = Disconnection B = connection C = consciousness, there are many angles to view this from.

free will exists as part of our conciousness - because we are concious and it only exists in the present.

we dont have to come to any point - you are sounding like a religious fanatic demanding one true god...... while removing personal responsibility for your actions. That is your conscious state in the present

so? why are you so scared of judgement of the external? The only fear is that I will not utilize judgement of the external for its true purpose, correction, this fear becomes my motivator

well that is plain illogical when you apply free will - i.e. the ability to choose an outcome. predetermined means every decision has already been set out and cannot change. Predetermined ,means that ALL potential, the final result has already been laid out. The life which we experience is not life at all in its true sense. It is a life created from nothing to provide a training ground for consciousness to develop from a seed to an adult, within these worlds, created from nothing there is Free Will, free will is not in connection to creating external events, it is in relation to changing ones perception of what is external, a constant, limitless space. The true existance

however i will throw you a bone - all that was, all that is and that will be - is already created - yes if you consider energy and that everything is created from energy that already exists. however when you apply all that has been created to future free will choices - it becomes illogical - a choice has not already been made if free will exists. so thats why i say we shape energy with our free will - but thats distinctly different from a predetermined future.



you are adding things on to the definition of free will. ?

who forbids it exactly?? Forbidden is again a psychological rule that means if you have not attained it you have not realised it and therefore it can lead you, or others astray.


i am reminded of your maths teacher example - try an English teacher - your definition is incorrect......... As i said you are too clever for me

the oxford dictionary definition for you:


perhaps if you could not follow the practical example the definitions will show you that a predetermined future and free will cannot co-exist.

What the definitions illustrate, if you listen to what i have been saying to you definately co-exist in the present state that humanity finds itself.

[hybrid]

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

OK. How do I do this?

you did not.

[Xan]

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

There is no guru in me, the more i know the less I know, there is a dogmatic, belligerant, stubborn, opinionated fool inside me, and as much as I can muster I yearn for Love to cover all of this.

There's honesty for you. A prerequisite for Truth.

But know... Love doesn't just cover our ego-mind stuff, it transforms it.


Xan