What is consciousness and in which forms can it appear?

Originally Posted by Siemens

So you say: The soul knows but it can’t think?

So you say it does?

Originally Posted by Siemens

The problem is that you think partially rational but you haven’t reflected the relation between rationalism and empirism. And you don’t understand fundamental epistemological principles, especially principles of how to gain valid, absolute, or at least probable knowledge.
It is per se impossible to derive absolute knowledge from a science that is based on materialistic observations like psychology. From a logic standpoint natural sciences can’t prove any theory it can only falsify those that are wrong (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_rationalism).

Further isn’t science objective. Especially psychology is based on paradigms – dogmatic sets of beliefs – that are more or less arbitrary. Neuroscience for example bases on the paradigm that there is nothing supernatural and that human beings don’t have souls. Its findings are true and valid only within this dogma. That psychology is contradictory in itself is obvious. For example, you yourself said that consciousness is just an epiphenomenon, what’s true if we would assume that consciousness were created only by the brain. But on the other side there are a bunch of psychological theories that claim that consciousness has some functions and evolved through natural selection. I hope you see the contradiction: As an epiphenomenon consciousness couldn’t influence behaviour -> therefore it can’t have any function -> therefore it can’t have evolved through biologic evolution (natural selection).

If you really want to find out something about consciousness: Don’t rely on psychology!

So your own learning is not worthy?

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenon

An epiphenomenon (plural: epiphenomena) is a secondary phenomenon that occurs alongside or in parallel to a primary phenomenon.

The primary phenomenon being the 'processing' that happens within the brain/mind construct and the secondary phenomenon or epiphenomenon being being consciousness. And you can assume anything you like but I know from my own experiences - not science or assumptions or fairy tales - that when the mind goes into 'survival mode' consciousness can 'shift' or 'pause' and disconnect from the brain/mind mechanism in order to not have to deal with the trauma. It's actually quite common. What you clearly can't distinguish is the difference between consciousness and what we are conscious of - two very different beasties. What you are talking about with the consciousness-generating machine is not consciousness itself but what we are conscious of - the 'contents' of consciousness if you like.

I'm also a medium (clairsentient as it happens) so I am also aware of consciousness from that level - which is beyond the brain/mind mechanism - as any medium will tell you. Mediumship entails creating a direct link with Spirit, which is even beyond what's commonly known as the sixth sense or psychic abilities. Intuition and Gnosis are also beyond brain/mind processing yet they are still a part not of consciousness itself but what we are conscious of.

So you can follow the trail from brain/mind to sixth sense to intuition to Gnosis to Spirit link and the consciousness sits atop of it all, because for every layer of what we become conscious of, consciousness itself is still a layer above. 'Technically' that's inaccurate but it'll do for the sake of discussion.

But then you can proclaim yourself an expert at anything you like. If you understand consciousness from the intellect then you don't understand consciousness. And by the way, you have it backwards; matter is emergent of consciousness is not a phenomenon of that machine of yours nor is it generated by the Soul - even if we really have one. Consciousness came first.

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

So you say it [the soul] does [think]?

Of course!
But you didn’t answer my question: Do you say the soul knows but cannot think?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

So your own learning is not worthy?

My study isn’t worthy to find something out about consciousness or spiritual truth. But it imparts other knowledge that’s useful for me.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

you can assume anything you like but I know from my own experiences - not science or assumptions or fairy tales - that when the mind goes into 'survival mode' consciousness can 'shift' or 'pause' and disconnect from the brain/mind mechanism in order to not have to deal with the trauma.

I never denied that consciousness can disconnect from the brain! On the contrary, I proposed that consciousness IS disconnected from the brain!

Originally Posted by Greenslade

you have it backwards; matter is emergent of consciousness is not a phenomenon of that machine of yours nor is it generated by the Soul - even if we really have one. Consciousness came first.

I don’t understand what you are saying here.
Does matter emerge from consciousness or does consciousness emerge from matter?

Originally Posted by Siemens

Of course!
But you didn’t answer my question: Do you say the soul knows but cannot think?

It's a moot point as to whether or not we have a Soul, what it is..... If we have a Soul then it knows, it doesn't need to think.

Originally Posted by Siemens

My study isn’t worthy to find something out about consciousness or spiritual truth. But it imparts other knowledge that’s useful for me.

Spiritual is anything you want it to be and truth is relative to one's own agenda, and if your Spirituality comes from your intellect as you yourself have already stated, you'd be aware of how your own psychology creates what you are conscious of. What you are conscious of and consciousness itself are two different entities.

Originally Posted by Siemens

I never denied that consciousness can disconnect from the brain! On the contrary, I proposed that consciousness IS disconnected from the brain!

What you said was that the Soul is a consciousness-generating machine, but the consciousness is already generated and the Soul - if we have one - is emergent of consciousness.

Originally Posted by Siemens

I don’t understand what you are saying here.
Does matter emerge from consciousness or does consciousness emerge from matter?

I said matter is emergent of consciousness.

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

If we have a Soul then it knows, it doesn't need to think. .

Well, I have two questions:
(1) How would you know this? Or is it just a dogma?
(2) Why should this be the case? Knowing and thinking are two sides of the same coin. Without knowing there is no thinking, without thinking knowledge can’t be applied.

Having knowledge means, that there are mental structures inside a being that are analogous to (or representations of) structures in the real world. Thinking in turn means to apply precisely these mental structures (what leads to behaviour or mental activity). So you say, the soul has these mental representations but is unwilling or incapable of using them? Why should that be??

In general I don’t understand your concept of a soul. What actually is and does a soul by your definition (if it would exist)?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I said matter is emergent of consciousness.

Okay, either I don’t understand you or you are contradicting yourself. One the one side you say “matter emerges from consciousness”. But on the other side - if I understand you correctly - you believe that the brain (which consists of matter) gives rise to consciousness.
So you say: Consciousness emerges from matter (the brain) and matter emerges from consciousness? Isn't this circular reasoning?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

consciousness is already generated and the Soul is emergent of consciousness.

How can the soul emerge form consciousness? What would a soul be then?

Originally Posted by Siemens

Well, I have two questions:
(1) How would you know this? Or is it just a dogma?
(2) Why should this be the case? Knowing and thinking are two sides of the same coin. Without knowing there is no thinking, without thinking knowledge can’t be applied.

Having knowledge means, that there are mental structures inside a being that are analogous to (or representations of) structures in the real world. Thinking in turn means to apply precisely these mental structures (what leads to behaviour or mental activity). So you say, the soul has these mental representations but is unwilling or incapable of using them? Why should that be??

In general I don’t understand your concept of a soul. What actually is and does a soul by your definition (if it would exist)?

The Soul is the Spiritual or immaterial aspect of ourselves, the divine spark if you like. Being immaterial it's outside of the thinking which is electrical signals whizzing around in the brain.


There is having knowledge and there is knowing, but there are grey areas in the definitions where knowing is gained not through knowledge but though experience and/or intuition. Another knowing is Gnosis, which simply means knowing without knowing how you know and it goes beyond both brain/mind and intuition. Soul is consciousness, not brain/mind constructs which are energetic. The Soul doesn't need the mental constructs because they are only the processing of raw data/knowledge that the Soul is beyond.

Originally Posted by Siemens

Okay, either I don’t understand you or you are contradicting yourself. One the one side you say “matter emerges from consciousness”. But on the other side - if I understand you correctly - you believe that the brain (which consists of matter) gives rise to consciousness.
So you say: Consciousness emerges from matter (the brain) and matter emerges from consciousness? Isn't this circular reasoning?

Matter is emergent of consciousness and there is an inter-relationship between brain, mind and consciousness. There is consciousness itself and there is what we are conscious of. Consciousness does not emerge from matter, that is not what I said.

Originally Posted by Siemens

How can the soul emerge form consciousness? What would a soul be then?

The Soul is an individuated aspect of consciousness, and again there are inter-relationships between a perceptually individuated aspect of conscious and what might be termed as 'Universal consciousness'.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Siemens

When I think about myself and ask who or what I am the answer is: I AM CONSCIOUSNESS!

So my question is: Can consciousness only exist in these three forms: feelings, perceptions, and thoughts (whereby perceptions are a complex of feelings and thoughts are experienced in form of inner perceptions)? Or are there other possible forms of consciousness we can experience (for example outside the material world) that are not feelings, not perceptions, and not thoughts? Have you ever consciously experienced something whereby the content of your conscious experience was neither feeling, nor perception, nor thought?

Your answer might be found by looking at unconsciousness. When a person is unconscious, the brain is still giving off certain brain waves.

So why is unconsciousness so much different then consciousness?

[neil]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Your answer might be found by looking at unconsciousness. When a person is unconscious, the brain is still giving off certain brain waves.

So why is unconsciousness so much different then consciousness?

In micro moments, the brain receives chemical, electrical information from the sences of the body & in micro moments it processes the chemical electrical information, into a content that the mind can think & reason with, & delivers it to us the spiritual "Soul'self/mind"..."of which we are only connected to the body, but enmesheshed within"...in micro moments after processing it.

The brain does not do any thinking with the newly transformed information, the brain only processes the information & then delivers it to us, the "Soul'self/mind" & we use that transformed content to think & reason with.

& then as we think & reason, we develope responses to the constantly incoming newly transformed content from the brain, & as we develope responses, the responses are constantly delivered on to the brain for transformation by the brain into information that the sences of the body can respond to, so that the body will opperate....walk, talk..etc.

The mind which is housed within, & is of the Soul'self, reasons, thinks & responds to the information from the sences, the brain does not, the brain only non consciously & non sentiently transforms information.

It all happens so incredibly fast, which makes us believe that we are the brain.

The question was put forward what about brain waives after the death.."of which of course there is no death"...there is only disconnection from physical body, then deterioration of physical body.
Well as the brain does not have consciousness before disconnection, but does only non consciously & non sentiently work/process information, it probably is still doing those kind of non conscious & non sentient things for a short while after disconnection...POSSIBLY.

When a person is in an out of body experience, all sentient consciousness, is out of body in that experience, the body & brain are kind of dormant, as we are out of the physical body & yet the brain is still putting out brain activity as it pumps blood etc.

Now if a person was to then say well what is the sub'consciousness that we seem to experience, well i would say that my experience shows that any sub consciousness, is influence from spiritual persons other than ourselves, who are constantly involving themselves in our affairs. They can do it discretely so that we think that the subconscious thoughts originate from within us, or they can do it so that we are aware that it is thoughts coming from them, or they can do it both ways moment by moment.

Research through biblical canon & non biblical canon scriptures, does show that spiritual beings are 100% constantly involved in our lives/affairs moment by moment.

I am also assured by spirit, that my experiences with any sub consciousness, as being influence from other spiritual beings, is a truth...& that we are indeed 100% full time consious beings without a subconscious component to our being.

As usual, my thoughts are written only for your considerations.

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Matter is emergent of consciousness

I don’t disagree. But since your belief is so different from mine: How do you think that matter is emergent of consciousness? Does consciousness create matter?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

There is consciousness itself and there is what we are conscious of. Consciousness does not emerge from matter, that is not what I said

Okay, were does consciousness then come from?

Originally Posted by Siemens

I don’t disagree. But since your belief is so different from mine: How do you think that matter is emergent of consciousness? Does consciousness create matter?

It's not by belief, there's scientific and Spiritual evidence to back it up - "God created the heavens and the earth" and so forth and most ancient religions have a similar tale to tell. The Buddhist have their Aum, which is consciousness altering the frequency vibration. And so on. Max Planck, the father of quantum theory said that we must assume there is an intelligence behind the Universe, while quantum mechanics itself shows that consciousness affects matter/energy, as did the experiments Matsuru Emoto when he imprinted water with consciousness.

This is where Spirituality falls down in the consciousness discussion. All matter is of consciousness so a Spiritual person being conscious is as mundane as it gets. Understanding consciousness is a very different ballgame, and most aren't conscious that being conscious of Spirituality and ignoring everything else is only being conscious of a small subset of consciousness, how it works and what it can do.

I am conscious that I am conscious and what I and conscious of, and I am also conscious that there are things I am not conscious of. But I am not conscious of what I am not conscious of, and that's the humility-making factor. I learned that from a swallow, not in the forums.

That's the second time you've tried the same tactic, were you conscious that you were doing it? If not then your knowledge of psychology isn't doing you much good. What I've been talking about here aren't beliefs, they're all verified at least by objective research, or at least as verifiable as they can be currently. Defining them as beliefs means that in your reality at least, they hold no sway. That mean your own...... can hold sway instead.

Originally Posted by Siemens

Okay, were does consciousness then come from?

It's epiphenomenal so it doesn't come from anywhere. Other than that, you'd better join the queue at the Mystical Mysteries desk for an answer. Consciousness says that it's still trying to figure itself out and when it does, it'll get back to you.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Siemens

I don’t disagree. But since your belief is so different from mine: How do you think that matter is emergent of consciousness? Does consciousness create matter?



Okay, were does consciousness then come from?

I haven't followed your convo with G.S. on this with great attention but have you both come to a conclusion of what consciousness actually 'IS' yet?

You see, from where I am standing I would have to know what consciousness 'IS' before I could suggest whether consciousness creates matter or not .

If Consciousness 'IS' matter and matter 'IS' consciousness then bobs your uncle, it isn't a matter (excuse the pun) of whether consciousness creates matter for they are one and the same .

Do you follow me?


x daz x