On Truth and Subjectivity

[Gem]

No one's going to come and say their Truth is informed by a power which is higher than themself or assert validity based on grand delusions, for each person may say as he thinks and all persons are equal in that regard.

The saying 'your truth'... as if every person can have a truth of their own, means any person's statement can be said to be true, but it seems quite obvious that fallacy is the main constituent of peoples' beliefs.

The semantics of it are a little contrived as more spiritual sounding phrasing negates any way that a person can be wrong, but fallacy of belief causes so much suffering. Just last week an afghani girl child was shot in the head for attending school because maniacs believe something wierd and call it the truth. 'Your truth' are dangerous words.

The subjective conscious experience is momentarily changing, and nothing can be helds in the hands, so one can not grasp anything and say 'this is the truth'. The truth must be intrinsic to consciousness itself if it is to exist at all, and it does seem to be, because all people know the ability of truthfullness.

[Seawolf]

People believe harmful things all the time. I used to believe life was pointless and not worth living. Many people around here believe homosexuality is an abomination to God.

Beliefs come from the environment and history of an area. For instance the climate zone affects beliefs that arise, invasions from other countries, and whatever other factors that are specific to that culture.

But just like most things, beliefs have a positive side and a negative side. Anything that is so influential to people is going to have major effects. All spiritual beliefs are going to have some kind of major negative effect overall, but a positive one as well. To me it's not so much people have their own 'Truth' but have different environments and histories that shape their understanding of the world.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

People believe harmful things all the time. I used to believe life was pointless and not worth living. Many people around here believe homosexuality is an abomination to God.

Beliefs come from the environment and history of an area. For instance the climate zone affects beliefs that arise, invasions from other countries, and whatever other factors that are specific to that culture.

But just like most things, beliefs have a positive side and a negative side. Anything that is so influential to people is going to have major effects. All spiritual beliefs are going to have some kind of major negative effect overall, but a positive one as well. To me it's not much people have their own 'Truth' but have different environments and histories that shape their understanding of the world.

I enjoyed that.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

People believe harmful things all the time. I used to believe life was pointless and not worth living. Many people around here believe homosexuality is an abomination to God.

I noticed harmful beliefs, and also have has destructive ones, and still by no means a perfect person, but one thing I had was integrity and never lost sight of that, and integrity is a function of living by the truth, and taking what comes as consequence to that, and I think I sense that special quality in you as well... a quality that can be trusted.

Beliefs come from the environment and history of an area. For instance the climate zone affects beliefs that arise, invasions from other countries, and whatever other factors that are specific to that culture.

I don't think we should accept what culture deems the truth, and better to be critical and question the basis which validates social morality. Can we afford to blindly abide by social morality. For myself I need no man made laws to govern my behaviour, because I have that integrity I mentioned and am steered by good conscience, even though I deviate at times.

But just like most things, beliefs have a positive side and a negative side. Anything that is so influential to people is going to have major effects. All spiritual beliefs are going to have some kind of major negative effect overall, but a positive one as well. To me it's not much people have their own 'Truth' but have different environments and histories that shape their understanding of the world.

I agree, there's no option but to be the sum total of your past, and where some have this parady where they create themselves, it's still imperative to accept themselves as they are...

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by Gem

I noticed harmful beliefs, and also have has destructive ones, and still by no means a perfect person, but one thing I had was integrity and never lost sight of that, and integrity is a function of living by the truth, and taking what comes as consequence to that, and I think I sense that special quality in you as well... a quality that can be trusted.



I don't think we should accept what culture deems the truth, and better to be critical and question the basis which validates social morality. Can we afford to blindly abide by social morality. For myself I need no man made laws to govern my behaviour, because I have that integrity I mentioned and am steered by good conscience, even though I deviate at times.



I agree, there's no option but to be the sum total of your past, and where some have this parady where they create themselves, it's still imperative to accept themselves as they are...

Thanks for the kind words. Having been so beaten down by life in the past I can appreciate the freeing aspect of spirituality and is where my focus is spent, which may give me certain qualities. I don't really know. I don't think of myself as a follower of truth or a moral person, like I said my main focus is on personal freedom, from depression, hate and all kinds of negative beliefs about myself. And to be free from something I have to accept it, which doesn't make sense, but seems to work.

I can't speak for other cultures but here in the US there are all kinds of beliefs I don't want. We believe death and old age is something to be completely terrified of. Self worth is measured by careers and possessions. Many fear a God looking down on them disapprovingly.

Deep down we seem to have a negative self image here, which is masked by the image of ourselves we learn from society. So if we conform to society based on it's beliefs about value, we can at least 'fit in' and gain self esteem from the acceptance of others. And that actually does work to an extent, fitting in and being accepted provides happiness, and may be all most people need. Some though, can't seem to be happy fitting into any crowd, even 'alternate' ones -- we need something more and have to work at it a little harder. In ancient times we'd bring down a whole tribe with us because survival was dependent on conformity, but then again this is not ancient times anymore.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

Thanks for the kind words. Having been so beaten down by life in the past I can appreciate the freeing aspect of spirituality and is where my focus is spent, which may give me certain qualities. I don't really know. I don't think of myself as a follower of truth or a moral person, like I said my main focus is on personal freedom, from depression, hate and all kinds of negative beliefs about myself. And to be free from something I have to accept it, which doesn't make sense, but seems to work.

I'm not so big on acceptance, I think things can be seen and need not be accepted because they just are, it doesn't matter accept or not, it still just is. It's kinda like this: the thing is noticed before accepting or rejecting even happens.

I can't speak for other cultures but here in the US there are all kinds of beliefs I don't want. We believe death and old age is something to be completely terrified of. Self worth is measured by careers and possessions. Many fear a God looking down on them disapprovingly.

The powers that be and culture offer up a lot of senseless beliefs, and really all beliefs are not based in truth, so they change as new perceptions are made. When people think the belief is true they become dogmatic and that causes problems, which is why I don't like the phrase 'your truth'.

Deep down we seem to have a negative self image here, which is masked by the image of ourselves we learn from society. So if we conform to society based on it's beliefs about value, we can at least 'fit in' and gain self esteem from the acceptance of others. And that actually does work to an extent, fitting in and being accepted provides happiness, and may be all most people need. Some though, can't seem to be happy fitting into any crowd, even 'alternate' ones -- we need something more and have to work at it a little harder. In ancient times we'd bring down a whole tribe with us because survival was dependent on conformity, but then again this is not ancient times anymore.

We do need to fit in, and that's fine, well personally I'm way off the wall and have no place so dwell on the fringes, but I'm studying now and assimulating better and I hope to be pretty average joe, coz I'd be happier being part of society, even though it's fundamentally flawed.

Originally Posted by Gem

No one's going to come and say their Truth is informed by a power which is higher than themself or assert validity based on grand delusions, for each person may say as he thinks and all persons are equal in that regard.

The saying 'your truth'... as if every person can have a truth of their own, means any person's statement can be said to be true, but it seems quite obvious that fallacy is the main constituent of peoples' beliefs.

The semantics of it are a little contrived as more spiritual sounding phrasing negates any way that a person can be wrong, but fallacy of belief causes so much suffering. Just last week an afghani girl child was shot in the head for attending school because maniacs believe something wierd and call it the truth. 'Your truth' are dangerous words.

The subjective conscious experience is momentarily changing, and nothing can be helds in the hands, so one can not grasp anything and say 'this is the truth'. The truth must be intrinsic to consciousness itself if it is to exist at all, and it does seem to be, because all people know the ability of truthfullness.

It seems evident to me that offering this extreme example (of the afghani child shot) does nothing to provide a good/rational foundation for a general debate on truth and subjectivity. Whilst the incident is indeed shocking, it simply does not reflect the norm and just provides an emotive, alarmist spin on the topic.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by amy green

It seems evident to me that offering this extreme example (of the afghani child shot) does nothing to provide a good/rational foundation for a general debate on truth and subjectivity. Whilst the incident is indeed shocking, it simply does not reflect the norm and just provides an emotive, alarmist spin on the topic.

In the OP, there's one sentence about the shot girl; it wasn't the subject matter. I think it's appropriate.

Originally Posted by Gem

In the OP, there's one sentence about the shot girl; it wasn't the subject matter. I think it's appropriate.

Yes it was just a sentence but the only example you gave for the basis of your debate - hence my post.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by Gem

I'm not so big on acceptance, I think things can be seen and need not be accepted because they just are, it doesn't matter accept or not, it still just is. It's kinda like this: the thing is noticed before accepting or rejecting even happens.



The powers that be and culture offer up a lot of senseless beliefs, and really all beliefs are not based in truth, so they change as new perceptions are made. When people think the belief is true they become dogmatic and that causes problems, which is why I don't like the phrase 'your truth'.



We do need to fit in, and that's fine, well personally I'm way off the wall and have no place so dwell on the fringes, but I'm studying now and assimulating better and I hope to be pretty average joe, coz I'd be happier being part of society, even though it's fundamentally flawed.

That sounds great! When I'm depressed I retreat from everyone but I've been getting out there now. There are all kinds of interesting and fun people if I just make a little effort to find them. The internet might give a little social esteem but not very much.

For me acceptance means being able to observe thoughts with love.

All kinds of negative emotions were taking over my life until I heard about Tolle. I don't think he's the bees knees or anything, but I respect him because I was introduced to observing. Things have been getting better since then. Now I'm starting to be able to feel kindness towards my thoughts and see them as information instead of totally identifying with them and been controlled by them.

Beliefs come from our thoughts and emotions, but I don't have to accept everything I think and feel as truth. I don't think a term like 'My Truth' is correct because it's actually just my beliefs. I don't know if my spiritual beliefs are true or not and it doesn't seem important to me. I'm more interested if something works. Most wars seem to be about beliefs and also most needless war inside people's minds. Meditation is actually saving people's lives now. How many wars are started by religious people who meditate? Not many I imagine, it's mostly by people who believe in gods. They feel entitled and right, but I doubt we really know anything or have as much right as we think. No one ever thinks of themselves as the problem.