Part of why we perceive the way we do

[organic born]

Originally Posted by Baile

Ayahuasca ceremonies. So then my understanding is a chemical in the body supposedly blocks the human being from having spontaneous metaphysical experiences. And that the Ayahuasca blocks the chemical blocker, or something like that. Go on a week-long retreat, ingest a hallucinogen, and experience the wavelength of nature and the cosmos.

And I read that and thought: What about the other 51 weeks of the year? Instead of hallucinogens, why not just ditch your cellphone and iPads, and stop watching television?

A couple of things come to mind when as I read this. From what I've heard of the Ayahuasca experience is that it seems to parallel some of my more unusual exposures.

When the filters, that we consciously perceive life through, fall away, then we are confronted with a rawness that undercuts our primary feeling of predictable stability. We use the conscious thinking mind, and our strongly-embraced-belief-structures, in order to symbolically create this "feeling" of stability, and a variety of somewhat reliable streams of repetitive interaction. We go to work, we have "friends", we watch tv at certain times, tend to favor certain shows, we eat foods in a repetitive manor in order to revisit a familiar taste. So this gives us the "feeling" of stability based mostly on repetitive habit. Nothing around us is operating in this way and on this time scale. Plants will go through repetitive cycles but each moment is fresh and must be addressed as such in relation to a shifting set of needs. Even our bodies are continually adjusting to real-time variables, and at such a level of intensity and diversity that it would simply swamp our conscious mind to try and simply relate to such flows, let alone keeping up with it.

When you find yourself out of body the kinds of mental stability that we tend to rely on isn't there. Out of habit we will try and contain it by looking for patterns of persistent predictability but the environment is so raw that it simply refuses to capitulate. But even going there for a few minutes or so is amazingly instructive. You return with the certainty that nothing is at it seems (or as we've developed that certain set of patterns to perceive though). Frankly I wouldn't do the Ayahuasca because I would not want to be "trapped" within that form of perceiving beyond my current ability to do so comfortably. If it gets a little heavy in the lucid dreaming and obe states I'll just simply wake-up and re-immerse in what's more passively "familiar".

I used to think that this "current manor of perceiving" was the trap, (and it is in a verifiable way), but it does serve it's purpose as a platform of general navigation. I embrace that and work with it, and do so now in such a way that deeply honors this feeling of comfort that can respectfully come with it. :)

[organic born]

Originally Posted by Somnia

I wonder if this is similar to when a person is catching something falling, but they are not actively thinking about catching the falling object They are able to do so with lightening quick reflexes without really consciously thinking about it...Does this make any sense? (This is something I experience frequently, btw)...For example, by NOT THINKING about catching a falling object that falls close to me, I can catch it instantly with quick reflexes...but if I see the object falling and I begin to use thoughts such as "I need to catch that!" or I overthink, I usually I end up dropping whatever needs catching (LOL)...

Indeed yes!, we grant our "conscious" mind entirely too much credit. In fact we can seriously do nothing of value until we remove our conscious, nitpicking, judgmental, insecure collection of thoughts about ourselves aside long enough for the process of perfection to kick-in. If you're a piano player, your conscious mind can pick the music you're going to play, you can plan on encouraging others to admire such talent, and then revel in the moments that they do, but in order to actually play the piece with any level of perfection you had better get your thinking mind out of the way.

The example of the falling object is a good one. Your body directs muscles to move as you mentally motion in a desired direction. But you don't manipulate the hundreds of variables involved in the actual motion itself. That's done by a process "much smarter than we are". It's done by the very vehicle we so often neglect and dismiss as somewhat "simplistic". That catching of the falling object, without the injection of thought, can serve as an observation of such perfection.

Originally Posted by Somnia

Organic born - Your lifestyle sounds very appealing...I've also experienced similar thoughts/feelings when gazing at the Moon...Thinking about how many individuals of past ages gazed up at the Moon in wonder and what life (the time period) was like at that moment for those individuals...

Now this is one of the beauties of being human. We happen to have the ability to dream (both awake and while asleep). We can picture variables of rather unique creations, and then for a moment feel a part of them as long as the process of disbelief is suspended.

Because, while in thinking of past peoples or of ourselves in past lives it's really difficult to move our current understandings aside. In my own experience when I was watching the moon and for a moment "feeling" a life that was more centric with past times, I still kind of new about what the moon was via science, where I was physically located on the planet, and that there's a road with traffic on it not that far away. In the sleeping dream state we can "go there" with considerably more vigor, perhaps because our mind is not being distracted by more immediate imperatives. But I do manage to squeeze-in the flavor of such exposures, more successfully when I do so spontaneously. Our thinking mind is designed more around "keeping us oriented" and so we should expect this to happen should we actively try and imagine things otherwise. :)

[Baile]

Originally Posted by organic born

Frankly I wouldn't do the Ayahuasca because I would not want to be "trapped" within that form of perceiving beyond my current ability to do so comfortably. If it gets a little heavy in the lucid dreaming and obe states I'll just simply wake-up and re-immerse in what's more passively "familiar".

That is a good point. I wouldn't be interested either, although I've been wondering why I felt that way since I came across this. And I see now the reason you're identifying here is why.

Originally Posted by organic born

When the filters, that we consciously perceive life through, fall away, then we are confronted with a rawness that undercuts our primary feeling of predictable stability. We use the conscious thinking mind, and our strongly-embraced-belief-structures, in order to symbolically create this "feeling" of stability...

When you find yourself out of body the kinds of mental stability that we tend to rely on isn't there... You return with the certainty that nothing is at it seems (or as we've developed that certain set of patterns to perceive though).

I used to think that this "current manor of perceiving" was the trap, (and it is in a verifiable way), but it does serve it's purpose as a platform of general navigation. I embrace that and work with it, and do so now in such a way that deeply honors this feeling of comfort that can respectfully come with it. :)

This is all very interesting and I really appreciate the depth-explanation and overview. I've actually been trying to learn lucid dreaming for several weeks now in fact but I keep falling asleep! That said, when I think about things like filters we perceive life through - or in the case of another thread, "matrix" ideas and such - I kind of reached a place where I don't have an interest anymore in examining fundamental spiritual questions about reality. Part of that for me I think is I once got broken due to my cultish need to make spiritual sense of everything. I clubbed people with my spiritual truth, and they clubbed me with theirs. I'm still recovering from all that damage. I don't get too philosophical anymore; I'm me, this is life, and that's all I need to know.

And of course I look deeper than that, but I look within and my self-development journey is my contemplation now. I have created a life based on rhythm. That rhythm of experiencing life and examining within, over and over, is what keeps my inner-wavelength in a kind alpha-theta state. You asked me: What help have you had along the way? Have you been so blessed along these lines? I've been helped and blessed to see a magnificent world. Physical material reality is a miracle. That understanding is maybe the spiritual realization highlight of my lifetime. That predictable stability has helped heal me.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by Baile

That is a good point. I wouldn't be interested either, although I've been wondering why I felt that way since I came across this. And I see now the reason you're identifying here is why.

I wanted to revisit the drug thing and expand it a bit further. :)

I simply don't see the need for doing the drugs with the intent of achieving enlightenment. I think the whole pursuit is rather overly hyped. Here's a favorite quote of mine about what to expect when "enlightened".

It ought not to be inferred that living by Zen has something unique
or extraordinary about it, for it is, on the contrary, a most ordinary
thing, not at all differentiated from the rest of the world.
Daisetz T. Suzuki (1870 – 1966)

I'm good with this. Since I first encountered OBE's and lucid dreaming I was thinking I was being exposed to a doorway to the other-side. And indeed I feel I have been, but not for the purpose of transitioning this life, but as a tool to better understand where we currently are. Now don't get me wrong, both obe's and lucid dreaming are amazingly interesting. But they both keep pointing back to our experience with the now. To be born into a physical body is a gift that we've given ourselves as a soul looking for a truly unique experience.

The drugs are incredibly flashy and alert us to differing ways of experiencing reality more directly. But they're mostly a shock to our perceptual systems and don't really address our day to day rhythm-of-being. I was reading a book called the Acid Diaries by Christopher Gray which is a pretty good read if you want to know what happens when one experiments with acid for mostly spiritual reasons. He purposely did acid on a regular basis and felt he learned a lot but it was dicey at best. You would think that regular exposures to consistent dosing would eventually level-off into a predictable experience. But he was constantly being swung back and forth between really interesting and Really bad experiences. It didn't strike me as a worthy endeavour.

When I mentioned before about being "trapped", in relation to drugs, I was referring to being caught in the middle of a really nasty experience. When you find yourself in a lucid dream, or in an out of the body situation, or in this case with drugs, time seems to have no meaning. You are present, you are very present, your moment to moment feels so absolutely moment to moment. 30 seconds can feel like a very long time when your present, is present, is present. And all natural experience like lucid dreaming and OBE's are terminateable at anytime (in fact they're often frustratingly short, at least in my case). But the drug stuff locks-on and can last for a very long time, whether you want it to or not. If the experience happens to suck.. too bad. That's the "trapped" that I was talking about. When the moment is omnipresent then a bad trip will feel like an eternity. Most who go that route seem to emerge out the other end okay, but ewwww... and I'm not in the least bit squeamish, I've gone-out, and go-out, on the limb all the time in regards to physical matters and dream related adventures, but being trapped in a potential nightmare, within a situation this potent, seems decisively unnecessary. IMHO!

Originally Posted by Baile

I've actually been trying to learn lucid dreaming for several weeks now in fact but I keep falling asleep!

Cool! The few times that I tried to initiate lucid dreaming I kept falling asleep as well. They just tend to come to me spontaneously on their own and tend to point at something specific that I'm suppose to take notice of. So essentially out of pure laziness I don't bother to try. I figure if I'm needing to see/know something then the experience will come to me naturally. In this regard I'm living in an embarrassment of riches.

But I have read a great deal on how to initiate a lucid dream. I'm sure that you are as well, but here's a few pointers that I particularly liked.

Keep a dream diary, and write it by hand (writing by hand stimulates a different part of the brain that's more conducive to much better recall). Add to the diary the moment you wake up. This forces our attention back too the dream state, when our normal pattern is to wake-up and move on. Our brains actually release a chemical at night that inhibits our ability to remember dreams when we awaken. It seems that roughly 75% of our nightly dreaming involve negative scenarios so it does this to save us the hassle of having to consciously process such a mess.

You're already eating well so that's good! A clean running body makes for a better perceiver.

Some would have you wake-up fully in the wee hours of the night and then have you try to lucid dream when you return back to bed. Some would have you sleep in a little longer in the morning when you're no longer tired so you're not sleeping that deeply.

I'm sure there are others on this forum who can add greatly to this list, but these are the ones that come readily to mind.

Bottom line is, if you're meant to have lucid dreams then you will. If you're not, then you won't. Don't even remotely judge yourself based on whether you do or not. Just being awake within a physical body is a spiritual experience in itself!

Originally Posted by Baile

I've been helped and blessed to see a magnificent world. Physical material reality is a miracle. That understanding is maybe the spiritual realization highlight of my lifetime. That predictable stability has helped heal me.

Amen! I kept looking elsewhere for many-a-year until it finally crystallized that I'm right here where I now need to be. When we die we awaken to our "much greater self" but we were this greater self before entering this perspective. So this reality 'here' is a spiritual adventure, that was purposefully chosen by ourselves. I have a very strong feeling that we knew what we were doing, to assume otherwise would be silly beyond measure. :)

[Baile]

Thanks for all that wisdom. When I first read your thread, it got me pondering why it is children operate at lower wavelengths. Then it got me pondering how accurate that claim really is. I taught school for two decades. Kids are as different as cactuses and daisies. Some kids are intellectual buzz saws. They devour everything they’re taught, and it’s a real challenge to keep up with their need for new lesson material. Other children are sleepy dreamers; they’d rather school was one long recess, that way they could play outside all day.

People respond in positive ways to others who are “on the same wavelength.” I generally don’t respond well to people who appear to be operating on higher wavelengths. And when I say higher, I equate that with the intellect, and people who interact with life in a forceful, opinionated way, rather than a receptive and listening way. Which I see now is why the recess kids all loved me and why the buzz saw kids seemed to only ever put up with me.

I’ve been a sleepy dreamer all my life. I had my intellectual youngish adult stage which is normal in life I think. But even then I was always more an observer. My colleagues in spiritual school could think circles around me because they were intellectually committed to the belief tenets, whereas I wasn’t.

So I wonder if wavelengths have more to do with acknowledging individual soul relationship to material reality. I look at your chart, and I see I’m a theta life-processor, and have been for most of my life. Which raises the question: Is it about getting back to a particular state via meditation and other methods? Or is it about recognizing soul impulses, and how different people approach life, based on their astrological influences, and personality traits, and karma and what not?

[Jyotir]

Hi organic born,

In response to your OP,

Typically and for the most part, children express life energy through heart and soul (mind and vital are the instruments) - joy, innocence, enthusiasm - until 'desire-mind' (kama-manas) decisively 'appropriates' the being, usually at or before puberty at which time mind and vital begin to dominate (heart and soul become more obscure/quiescent) which creates all the problems. This is empirically observable, although science takes a necessarily limited approach (per its exclusively defined assumptions and methods) to the phenomenon.

That phase of life is when divisive competitive/aggressive, rational intellectual, and sexual nature really takes hold; insecurity, self-doubt, impurity, etc. - much of which is reinforced and utilized by society (the collective appropriation of the unawakened individual) as status-quo purpose of human life - personal gain, procreation, etc. In fact, a lot of so-called education is simply the inculcation of these functions as 'normal'.

It then becomes a difficult proposition to re-introduce the original mitigating/transforming factors of genuinely spiritual import back into the life - that is, IF the person at that point hasn't buried those possibilities entirely which is usually the case.

~ J

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

It then becomes a difficult proposition to re-introduce the original mitigating/transforming factors of genuinely spiritual import back into the life - that is, IF the person at that point hasn't buried those possibilities entirely which is usually the case.

This is an example of why I posted what I did in my last post. Is there really a good-versus-bad argument that needs to be made with this topic? How true is it, really, that lower wavelength states produce everything good such as joy, innocence and enthusiasm, while higher wavelength states relate to all the so-called bad stuff: divisive competitive/aggressive, rational intellectual, and sexual nature? I relate intellectualism to higher wavelength activity, although I have not idea if that's true. I say that because people who operate out of the intellect seem to be processing in a kind of hyper-active mind state, which suggests a Beta state to me. But I don't see that as a bad thing, in the same way I don't arbitrarily assume the Theta state is the ideal.

And I would never suggest to someone they would benefit from taking up meditation, in order to slow down to Alpha state levels. I don't know what someone else needs; it's their karmic life journey and not mine. Maybe this is their rational intellect incarnation, maybe that's their karma. That's why I say that information of this sort might be better utilized as a tool and method by which we can gain more understanding of individual people, and their different "wavelength approach" to living and perceiving. I don't need people to be and think like me. I just need to have a general understanding of how they think and function, in order to be able to interact with them on some basic level.

[Baile]

I'd like to put forward another few thoughts, hoping they tie in with my previous observations. An argument can be made that the charts are mirroring the progression and evolution of human consciousness. The idea here being that each stage, from Delta to Beta, is representative of the consciousness progression that took place with each new Yuga. There are spiritual philosophies for example that describe Lemurian reality as non-material, and Lemurian consciousness likened to the dream-state. Atlantean reality is understood to be an evolution of this Lemurian state. But even still, Atlantean reality is said to have been more etheric than material, where consciousness was entirely intuitive, and where the very structures that were built were effortlessly created via the harmonious relationship of human imagination penetrating into nature.

We could be talking about the Alpha and Theta states here: Human beings existing in these states in the different the Yugas, naturally and organically. Meaning we're now in the fully-material, intellectually-awake Beta state of our consciousness evolution. These same spiritual philosophies also describe the collective task of humanity as now having to do with uniting with Spirit in full waking consciousness. A new soul task and new evolutionary step, one that requires breaking free of that human-collective dream-like state and half-sleeping mind of ages past, and instead working with one's ego and self via our individual sense perceptions and cognitive abilities. Similarly and related, I'll also suggest the chart can be seen as mirroring this evolutionary consciousness progression, showing how and at which life stages this progression is reflected in the growing child and human being. I'd say the chart can even be likened to the cognitive states of the four archetypal material worlds: mineral/Delta, vegetable/Theta, animal/Alpha, and human/Beta.

[organic born]

Hi Baile and Jyotir :)

Delving into your observations is a complex undertaking and at the same time so wonderfully simple when viewed standing back from a distance. I want to do a reply justice but haven't the time at the moment. This could evolve into a most interesting conversation! :)

[organic born]

Originally Posted by Baile

So I wonder if wavelengths have more to do with acknowledging individual soul relationship to material reality. I look at your chart, and I see I’m a theta life-processor, and have been for most of my life. Which raises the question: Is it about getting back to a particular state via meditation and other methods? Or is it about recognizing soul impulses, and how different people approach life, based on their astrological influences, and personality traits, and karma and what not?

I started addressing your replies last night, spent almost an hour hovering over them but couldn't establish a stream of connectivity that felt right. So I decided to sleep on it and see where I was in the morning. An interesting dream pointed the way. In the dream I was in a Spanish speaking country, felt more like Spain than Mexico. I needed to locate something so I was drawn to an older woman who in turn connected with me and we balanced back and forth in an attempt to discern if our languages were similar enough in order to communicate my request. The events of the dream were essentially irrelevant, what I experienced was a feeling of stretching outside of my Pavlovian perceptions in order to feel with a more organic schema.

So here's the problem we run into when addressing stuff like this. The manor in which we observe stuff, while beta oriented, tends to be 'objective' to the point where it separates us almost completely from the thing we're observing and the richness of an event itself. Animals don't do beta, only humans do. Animals are far more tuned into the events of the moment and experience what's happening as a complete act of participation. While humans are somewhat removed "intellectually" from an occurrence, but are still somewhat tied to the deeper rhythms of whats occurring in an animalistic way as well.

We humans tend to "list" our emotions in such a way that removes our focus from a direct connect with their occurrence. So the emotions themselves go essentially unexplored in favor of a mentalized interpretation of their presence. What you explained in relating to the children under your charge, (as a teacher for a system of thought), was the diversity in which they connected with the expectations of that system. They were not being permitted to explore their worlds freely, they were being conditioned by a system of cultural priorities. Had you been instead a mother in a tribe along the Amazon river your connections and observations would have reflected that schema. You may have noticed things that appeared similar among the children but the context and flow-forward would have been more naturally oriented and more richer in naturally related intrinsic tones.

A Beta culture is one that prizes thought above feeling. If we look over the lives of many of those we deem "intellectuals" they can usually think with practiced clarity but their overall life experience will likely be choppy. They can think the big thoughts but be unable to sit comfortably and tune-into an infant in an intuitive way.

The Beta culture is a dangerous culture. When we objectify everything we can't experience the connections between things with any true clarity. We'll drift into eating food that isn't food, we'll develop politics in such a way that can result in the death of our planet, we can poison the "land", which we treat as an object, without feeling the connection between out habits and "its" health. Our children become objects to be manipulated, we tend to "feel" who they are in relation to our conditioned expectations.

This is a mouthful so far but I see a need for us to orient to a similar language in terms of the word "beta" before continuing further. Beta does indeed have it's advantages but it needs to be drawn back into the rich diverse rhythms of our deeper abilities to relate to our experiences more directly. You have likely been split between such contrasts for much of your life, as indeed I feel most of us are. As we've gotten older, and with experience, and we've played-out many of our beta-oriented-conditioned-ideals we tend to become less and less moved, and responsive, by the needling-insistence of such a beta driven system.

I'll hush now and await your impressions. :)