Isn't it obvious there should be no hell?

[Amilius777]

That stuff is all misinterpreted garbage on part of the Catholic Church

The main ministry and mission of Christ was redemption.

There are spirits who find themselves in Hell after death which is really a lower state of consciousness

Supposedly there are lower after-life realms that are of the soul's making but the soul can not remain in that state forever.

If you notice we all have a dark side to us, a carnal mind. The healthiest people are those who recognized that darkness and are aware of it. The sickest kind of people like murderers and pedophiles, sadistic rulers for example are so much stuck in their lower self, their shadow, that the consciousness is pulled down. They are "unevolved".

The Bible talks about sin in this way- "rebellion". Rebellion is when the soul regresses and fights change. The soul is meant to evolve and expand, not retreat in fear and create unnecessary suffering for itself. Throughout the Bible the prophets are angry with Israel not because they won't go back to "the good ole days" which is the source of their problems, but because they won't get on board with each new, rising Covenant that is initiated. The covenants are markers of spiritual evolution in those stories.

There is no original sin. The only original sin is that we are disconnected from God, we all at some point buy into the illusion that we are separated from God and each other. The physical dimension casts this illusion over us and as we live under that influence we make mistakes, thus the doctrine, "All have sinned". Of course, we come back with each lifetime to correct, evolve, and move on from what was holding us back .

Anytime you see a nation like the United States as of right now saying "we need to go back to the good ole' days" "we need to make this etc great again" or "if we only just got rid of these people and did things like they were when blah blah" you know you as a collective are in deep trouble. It means the spiritual regression of that group is malignant, heavily influenced by Fear in the media and by others, and incapable of allowing Change to occur.

John baptized with water, I baptized with fire"- Jesus. Jesus didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Interesting that water is a pun here. Instead he knew his disciples like all of us cling to belief systems of the past. They are ingrained and Christ did not expect them to throw it away and neither did he since it was fitting with the Age he entered into to transfer the Arian mindset into the Piscean. But Jesus said he was baptizing with Fire, meaning he was going to enlighten them from within; not wait for people to repent and then heal them. But show them that they are Loved first, then heal them, and then say their sins are forgiven. It is only by Love which is the highest Force can one know their worth, their Eternal identity as God's Son, and thus change their ways and evolve. And this was a massive change for not only the People he was born to but for any nation.

Sin is simply negative karma reaped from refusing to change, living in Fear, and not letting go. You can tell by someone's reactions to things in life, to other people, or situations how sinful they are. If a crazy person starts attacking another person, and that person patiently deals with that crazy person and doesn't stoop to their level you know they are a much more evolved soul; someone who chooses Love over fear. But if that person reacts violently or angry or impatient that person is stuck in their own loop of negativity.

Greek Thought is mainly the reason Christianity has found itself where it is. That is the lenses it developed through in it's early stages. Not bad, because Greeks were educated, intellectuals, philosophical and civilized. But they didn't possess the spiritual wisdom of Paul, Jesus, and the other apostles. These were men formed and fashioning their lives after the Holy Spirit and all the gifts and virtues it offers. The Catholic CHurches' doctrines of original sin, shame, etc were all inspired by Greek thought not pure Jewish-Christian teaching of the Gospels. Even when Christ mentions Hell in the gospels they are mainly references to Gehenna, an actual dump where child sacrificed happened. Jesus was alluding to Hell as a state where someone could find themselves after death or even while alive on Earth. He never said to the Pharisees "Just you wait! When you die, your soul will be sent to Hell!" Instead he says in a very difficult way to decipher, "You will lose this and that in Gehenna" or "Your on your way to Gehenna" or "It is better to lose one's hand or eye in Gehenna than one's whole body". Very strange but it shows that Jesus was speaking both of Hell as now or even after death depending.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by neil

could you imagine the horifficness of the rape, murder, torture, theft, enslavement, etc etc etc. There would be if such a system was not in place.

That's all projection. Nothing you write there is based on fact. That's your belief and nothing else. You've chosen to believe that about humanity; chosen to believe the worst about them. But all you're doing here is scapegoating humanity as a way to justify your personal belief choices... your belief that "horrific humanity" requires wrath-of-God punishment threats to keep them in line.

As I said, no facts, just your personal view based on your religious beliefs. Which is exactly the gist of Matt's whole post. You're confirming what he pointed out: "This clearly says here that religions such as fundamentalist Christianity twist our sense of morality to where we believe that the cruel and unrighteous acts of a morally atrocious God are instead righteous and holy acts of an all loving and all just God."

[jojo50]

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

it is obvious that there should be no hell.

there is a "hell" , but not what many religion teach. there isn't any "hellfire" as some are taught to believe. and maybe it's because of this scripture ,(Matt. 5:29,30 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell), kj bible.

many don't understand what Jesus was actually saying. which was don't let your body parts cause you to sin, which in turns will cause you to lose your life. the bible speaks of what hell really is... someone burial place, or grave.

Jonah said he was in "hell" ,(Jonah 2:1,2), but he was referring to the fish belly that swallowed him. another faithful servant said this when he prayed ,(Psa.139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there).

if hell was a fiery place, one wouldn't feel like he was making "his bed". Jesus said (Matt.25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels).

if hell suppose to be a place where demons reside, and wicked dead are tortured. then why did Jesus say an everlasting fire would be waiting for even the demons?, he means total destruction, since fire totally destroys things!

[Baile]

Originally Posted by jojo50

if hell suppose to be a place where demons reside, and wicked dead are tortured. then why did Jesus say an everlasting fire would be waiting for even the demons?, he means total destruction, since fire totally destroys things!

Why do you associate fire with destruction, with wicked things that require destruction? Fire is also cleansing and life-giving. Fire is the way life begins anew. People in my area burn old grass in the spring so that it grows up green and tall in the summer. The words in the Bible can be interpreted many different ways. How you personally interpret the words in the Bible is a refection on you. It is revealing your life outlook and your relationship with life: whether you fear life or love life; whether you despise humanity or love humanity.

You say he means total destruction. I say he is revealing a mighty creation secret pertaining to the everlasting fire that burns within the eternal soul.

[neil]

Originally Posted by Baile

That's all projection. Nothing you write there is based on fact. That's your belief and nothing else. You've chosen to believe that about humanity; chosen to believe the worst about them. But all you're doing here is scapegoating humanity as a way to justify your personal belief choices... your belief that "horrific humanity" requires wrath-of-God punishment threats to keep them in line.

As I said, no facts, just your personal view based on your religious beliefs. Which is exactly the gist of Matt's whole post. You're confirming what he pointed out: "This clearly says here that religions such as fundamentalist Christianity twist our sense of morality to where we believe that the cruel and unrighteous acts of a morally atrocious God are instead righteous and holy acts of an all loving and all just God."

Once again you have no understanding of my thoughts, and whether or not my understandings are built on pure personal experiences or not.....
...."FACT"

You continually assume that I am a religious fundamentalist type person.....
....."FACT....HOW WRONG YOU ARE.

I am no way affiliated with any spiritualist or religious groups of any kind...and I do only believe about 5 percent of any biblical scriptures.....
...."FACT"

I however do experience spiritual interactions, from very dark spiritual beings, through to, very loving spiritual beings.
And this indeed has given me a very great understanding of all things of an evil dark spiritual nature, and right through to all things of love and light......
"FACT AS WITNESSED EXPERIENCES"

I did not call out all of humanity in any way, and was only referring to spiritual beings who are without the flesh and who have chosen to act un lovingly, by perpetrating evil upon persons who are still in the flesh and who are totally unable to see, hear or sence the dark beings....
......"FACT AS WITNESSED EXPERIENCES"

NOW...I'LL REDIFINE IT FOR ONE AND ALL ONCE MORE.....AND YES Baile, I'LL USE CAPITAL LETTERS FOR PERSONS SUCH AS YOURSELF....

"FACT"......THE LAW OF REAP AS YOU SOW" IS A REAL AND WORKING EVER EXISTING LAW.
AND IT WORKS JUSTLY AND NEVER STOPS IT'S WORK. AND WAS PUT IN PLACE BY CREATOR.
THIS LAW WORKS IN CONSSENANCE WITH OUR 'BEING/SOUL'.....
.....AND IT CAN REWARD A PERSON WITH THE LOVE ENERGIES OF THE UNIVERSE IF THEY LIVE AND LOVE IN HARMONY WITH CREATORS WAY OF LOVE. AND THESE ADDITIONS OF THE LOVE ENERGIES OF THE UNIVERSE IMPROVE THE COUNTENANCE OF BEING/SOUL, WHICH INTURN ENHANCES THE COUNTENANCE OF THE ENERGETIC EMANATION OF THE SPIRITUAL BODY...

....OR THE LAW CAN WORK TO THE FULLEST ON A PERSON WHO ACTS OUT OF HARMONY WITH CREATORS LOVING WAY.
AND THAT PERSONS BEING/SOUL WILL LOSE THE LOVING ENERGIES OF IT'S SELF/SOUL (WHICH KEEP THAT SPIRITUAL PERSON INTACT HEALTHY LOOKING AND ALL ABUNDANT) TO SUCH A POINT THAT IT CAN BE NO LONGER RECOGNIZABLE AS ONCE HAVING A BEAUTIFUL SPIRITUAL BODY WHICH WAS IN THE IMAGE OF IT'S EARTH PHYSICAL FORM OF IDENTITY. ...
.......'Baile'....FACT, AS WITNESSED BY ME THROUGH EXPERIENCES THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO "FATHOM".

And once more for you so that you can get it through your head.....I am not a fundamentalist religious or spiritualist type person....."FACT"....
....all of my beliefs are based on real live interactions with spiritual beings of visual and audible nature......"FACT".

Baile would you care to try again...& lovingly communicate with me, instead of maligning me out of ignorance.

As always Sincerely...Neil.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by neil

Persons who think as you do, about all of the above do not yet understand what hell & eternal suffering is, & why it has come into existence, & who brings it into existence for each individual who is in a hellish location & or hellish condition of 'self being'.

If you haven't witnessed with your own eyes, a being who is in such a hellish condition of 'soul being' & what kind of effect, that it's continuing hellish 'soul condition' is having on that being, then you may never understand hell & eternal suffering.

Eternal suffering is only present for each individual, who is enduring it, while the being who is enduring it, is continualy causing it to happen.

The horrific appearance of the spiritual body& state of mind, of a person who is in a hellish condition can ease & that being can start to heal, if it will stop causing it to happen through the unloving thoughts & actions of that being.
The being in question does not have to suffer eternally & will only continue to suffer eternally if it will not stop perpetrating unloving thoughts & actions against others.

Unloving thoughts & actions against others, activates the spiritual law of "reap as you sow'' and this law is in place & is activated by any being who does perpetrate an unloving act upon another being.

The law has been put in place by creator, but is not activated by creator, because creator does not judge anyone nor does creator impinge on any sentient beings 'free will'...even if that sentient being is using it's free will to harm other sentient or non sentient beings....
....creator is not the judge & jury & does not condemn sentient beings to a hellish location or condition. ....
....we judge ourselves & our condition becomes more & more hellish, with every unloving thought & action upon other sentient & or non sentient beings, via the everlasting 'law of reap as you sow'.

& if there was not such a law in place, in the universe, then sentent beings could keep on treating others with such unimaginable cruelty for eternity, & that would be an unloving universe, created by a sadistic unloving god/creator.
But the universe is a self correcting universe of love, & designed & set up by a "loving god/creator" who does not judge & or condemn us, & does not condone in our any sentient or non sentient beings suffering.

Born of objectivity, and clarid thought, Neil.

In the greater reality and truth, don't you know that there is unity, Matt?
(Exekiel 1, Ezekiel 43, Revelation 17:15, concerning "many waters". Also, Re: "Gestalt".)

That... we come from God, that we are among the fallen angelic, the rebels, and apart from the reception of salvation through the blood of the sacrificial Lamb of God that we are lost?

What does Revelation 22 say? (Which has nothing to do with Catholicism, Am).

Outside the City of God are dogs, adulterers, sexually immoral... everyone who, "loveth and telleth the lie."

This world is a reflection of the hell Neil spoke of. As well as the beauty and peace of heaven.
Just read the Daily News. It's no mystery.

Remove heaven, and what have you?
But, Revelation also speaks of the Lake of Fire.

The remedy is simple though. God has provided the sacrifial Lamb for your sin.

[neil]

[quote=Morpheus]Born of objectivity, and clarid thought, Neil.

In the opening few words above found in your post reply, you used two words. ....
....one being..."OBJECTIVITY" AND THE OTHER, BEING "CLARID".

Now I am aware of the definition of "objectivity", but I failed to comprehend "clarid", so I looked it up and did not find a definition for it nor a mention of it......so I am wondering where you pulled the word "clarid from.....and what is your belief of it's meaning.
So that I can determine the message hidden in your words directed to and of me.
Maybe be you might have even have miss used the word "objectivity" who knows but yourself....I certainly do not.

Morpheus.....I would appreciate it if you could simply and expand on your thoughts hidden to me, in the words, within your opening sentence.
TA NEIL.

Gods justice scales are uncorruptable--They have perfect balance-- He taught all that balance--an eye for an eye--The true living God of Love.

So for 70-90 years of one sinning unrepentant, Gods justice scales could NOT condemn one to trillions x trillions x trillions, etc,etc of never ending years of suffering---A sadist would do this. God is Love--Those teaching it as literal are blind guides, they DO NOT KNOW GOD. ---Run from them.
Jesus has been given the judgement that Gods written word has already passed judgement and Jesus is Gods exact image( Coll 1:15)--do you really believe that Jesus you learned about could condemn one for an eternity of suffering----NEVER.
They as well probably teach the lazarus and one in heaven looking down watching one suffering--how could that one find happiness then? Could be ones mate, or father, or mother, etc-- it was symbolism.

[neil]

Hey, where is Baile...Baile where are you...why haven't you come back to this thread, after un lovingly dealing out nastiness..in your post #12... about my understandings of spiritual matters, that I had been communicating of in my post #2 of this thread.

I replied....to you politely as per usual, in my post #15, and explaining and pointing out to you how your unloving assumptions of myself and my material of knowledge, was completely wrong and politely offered for you to respond.....but it seems that you have since gone out of your way to post elsewhere on this forum, and in effect avoided polite communications with myself.

Baile are you coming back to this tbread ever againnnnnn.

Regards Neil.

I



I

[BlackHoleSun]

I like to think Hell is, if anything, temporary. I hear some Abrahamic doctrines teach that if one should find themselves cast into hell for some wrongdoings, they need only forgive themselves and ask to be released, and they can walk out and learn to be better beings. I really thought that seemed true to me. :)