Questionable spirituality

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Altair

Einstein may have been mesmerized by the wonder that is the natural world, and call it a world of God or call it spiritual, but he was still a materialist.

Having material orientation and being material scientist does not mean he is not spiritual or does not have spiritual orientation . In fact I believe scientist can be real spiritualists bcos they and spiritualists doe the same thing . They envision something which others can not and convince those others /sceptics to follow them with their hardwork / dedication / evidences.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Having material orientation and being material scientist does not mean he is not spiritual or does not have spiritual orientation . In fact I believe scientist can be real spiritualists bcos they and spiritualists doe the same thing . They envision something which others can not and convince those others /sceptics to follow them with their hardwork / dedication / evidences.

More information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...ert_Einste in

[HITESH SHAH]

The link clearly say at most he is agnostic not a non-believer . As per following quotes in the link u provided he was pantheist for sure and real spiritualists are also pantheist. His views really reveal the true modesty and humility

In an interview published in George Sylvester Viereck's book Glimpses of the Great (1930), Einstein responded to a question about whether or not he defined himself as a pantheist. He explained:
Your question is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things.[22]
Einstein stated, "My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems."[23]

[Altair]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

The link clearly say at most he is agnostic not a non-believer . As per following quotes in the link u provided he was pantheist for sure and real spiritualists are also pantheist. His views really reveal the true modesty and humility

Hitesh, I can't see much meaningful difference between an agnostic and a non-believer. You? His 'pantheism', if it is there (apparently he himself doesn't know if he could call himself a pantheist), seems to relate more to a sense of awe and wonder of the cosmos. This is not unique to believers nor does it require a belief in anything spiritual.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Altair

Hitesh, I can't see much meaningful difference between an agnostic and a non-believer.

To quote one online source:

An atheist lacks faith in God, believes there is no god, or lacks awareness of gods. An agnostic either believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a god or is noncommittal on the issue. The difference may seem small, but atheism and agnosticism are actually vastly different worldviews.

Peace

[Altair]

Originally Posted by iamthat

The difference may seem small, but atheism and agnosticism are actually vastly different worldviews.

They are close enough. Agnostics make no absolute claim but still lack faith..
We are probably all atheists anyway, unless you're going to believe in every deity. And even if you would, then I could say the Tooth Fairy is a deity too, and I'm not sure you would believe in the Tooth Fairy. Atheism is the default, and then we (or others) write something on that paper that we start with.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Altair

They are close enough. Agnostics make no absolute claim but still lack faith..
We are probably all atheists anyway, unless you're going to believe in every deity. And even if you would, then I could say the Tooth Fairy is a deity too, and I'm not sure you would believe in the Tooth Fairy. Atheism is the default, and then we (or others) write something on that paper that we start with.

I am not interested in the deities of any religion (not even the Tooth Fairy). But I am happy to accept the existence of the Absolute, that Supreme Being in which we all have our being.

Peace

Originally Posted by iamthat

I am not interested in the deities of any religion (not even the Tooth Fairy). But I am happy to accept the existence of the Absolute, that Supreme Being in which we all have our being.

Peace

I believe that many people are touched by “God”, and thus the assumption that all are atheists is incorrect and the supposition of one who yearns, but can’t yet feel that divine presence perhaps...

I agree with the definition you brought and see atheists and non believers as very different in outlook, propensity and capability.

Jl

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Having material orientation and being material scientist does not mean he is not spiritual or does not have spiritual orientation . In fact I believe scientist can be real spiritualists bcos they and spiritualists doe the same thing . They envision something which others can not and convince those others /sceptics to follow them with their hardwork / dedication / evidences.

In part yes, many scientists have said that they believe in God and/or Spirituality. Tesla was probably the most Spiritual and said that when science begins to discover the unknown - by which he meant Spirituality - science would make more progress in ten years than it had since it was born. Granted later in Life his faith waned in the context of his situation. Apparently Einstein's God was one of philosophy and not religion, and had little truck with the religious mindset. It certainly seems he believed in some kind of 'higher power', as hinted at in your later quote from him. As the scientist Nassim Haramein said, "Spirituality is the "What?" and science is the "How?" The main difference between science and Spirituality is that any scientific hypothesis goes through an extensive series of checks and balances before it becomes more universally accepted, whereas beliefs not so much.

Jung was very religious and, I think, based his definitions of the ego on the Sanskrit 'Ahamkara' because the two models are all but identical. Although he was one of the founding fathers of psychoanalysis he had no issue with declaring that he didn't believe there was a God, he knew it.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You think you have Free Will but your subconscious decides it wants some comfort food because you're not looking after your emotional needs as much as you should be. Or you're just a hungry-guts. Your conscious mind tells you that it'll give you a fat backside so your end up in conflict, but somewhere in between there's a reason you decided you wanted that cookie. Deciding to not jump in front of a car is the lizard brain's survival instincts kicking in so that's a decision that is take by the subconscious then you become conscious of it.

Right, but I mean, every moment looks like I have full control of what I'm doing, like having a free will. If I want to I can stop typing this sentence now or 1 second later, or 5 minutes later, that's sort of free will, being in control and deciding on the action. This brings up the multi-verse. Such as me in this Universe ending the sentence right now, but thinking that I could end it 1 second later, but me in the other Universe ends it 1 second later as me in this Universe thought about that I could have ended 1 second later.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

If you want to understand preplanned, Google for "Natalie Sudman." she gives one of the best accounts. In short, she was in a comma and in conversation with a Guide who was offering her choices, if she went back with these injuries she would have these experiences, if she went back with those injuries she would have those experiences. Spirit can 'navigate' timelines in the way we would use a roadmap, the Journey's end is predetermined but there is room for Free Will, that's 'built in'. You're always going to 'get there' but if you take a wrong road, the route can be changed to put you back on course. You're going to get there regardless but the question is, will that be because of or despite yourself?

I watched, and it made a lot of sense, thank you !

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The next time you hold a conversation, ask yourself how much of that conversation you intended to say and how much you became conscious of saying after you'd automatically said it.

The latter rings more for me. To answer the question something like 20% intended to say and 80% actually said along the conversation as there were other factors included such as the other person's thoughts and words.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

There's a brilliant little story that makes sense of it. Once upon a time there was a single conscious, all alone in the night. The consciousness did something that changed the Universe forever, it asked the question "Who am I?" In order to answer the question it split itself in two so that it could see itself, and here we are today.

Right, that's beautiful. I see that as the God creator, the consciousness field.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Yes, although not in a form that our conscious minds could possibly grasp. In mediumship there's a saying - "All Spirit is thirty-five years old." Technically Spirit has no age but the idea is that seeing a Loved One in Spirit who looks thirty five is a 'translation of consciousness', the idea there is to give an impression that the person is in the prime of their Life. But they are still a 'person/individual' with personality and memories all intact.

Good to know, thanks !

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Until someone actually puts a meter on consciousness nobody will have any kind of answer. Lack of proof doesn't make sceptics correct, and if they were so clever they wouldn't be sceptics but geniuses.

Right, I agree, but why is it that the current scientific community accepts that consciousness is just brain emergent through electricity and chemical reactions within the brain? Such as the mind being confined within the brain as the brain entirely producing it, or as an epiphenomena, the proof being 'unawareness before birth' that occurs in most people. The sceptics would say that a negative can't be proven nor disproven as it would be imaginary

Originally Posted by Greenslade

In trauma situations the mind/consciousness can protect itself, it's very common. And ask yourself what you are conscious of - are you conscious of every signal that's whizzing around in your body right now? We also know that it's possible to put someone into deep hypnosis to recover memories - it even happens with Past Life experiences. Science also says that we 'record' everything that happens to us, so the information is still there - it's the access that's the problem and not the information itself. If your memories are stored externally you need some kind of mechanism to read/write them. As all organic systems your brain is going to be prone to dysfunction just the same as your bones are going to creak in time. What we become conscious of - the final product of so much filtering - seems to be either our choice and/or beyond our control. Can we become conscious of those signals?

Right, this makes sense, thanks!
But still it's puzzling why some NDErs still are unaware during the NDE.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Something else feeds the sceptics and it isn't common sense.

They would say it's 'rationality and lack of proof' labeling others as delusional and charlatans promoting fairy tales.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

How long did it take to 'discover' gravity, considering the amount of time we've been aware of its effects? What we have to remember is that although we're smarter than cavemen, there are still things that are so far beyond us that it makes our heads spin. Perhaps quantum theory holds all the keys.

Nice one. I just experienced it first hand, but don't forget that gravity is also susceptible to experiments, whereas spirituality, not so much, even though people like Dean Radin or Rupert Sheldrake have conducted experiments they are still not validated.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Some things are easily explainable.

Zactly!! Beliefs are real for the person because they are creating their own reality, and often they can be agenda. So since you're in this forum and you're Spiritual, what do you get out of it? Are you conscious of your reasons? Beliefs are the by-product of cognitive systems.

Thank you, this makes sense.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The problem is that people often take things too literally, and Spiritual especially, who don't understand how consciousness works. King Arthur was a real person but he lived in central Scotland, and Merlin was a Druid so the origins were in actual people rather than mythical characters. You also need to remember that many of the stores were carried by common, superstitious folks who feared both kings and druids. Often stories - such as King Arthur and his knights - would inspire people to do good deeds as much as Spirituality can inspire people even in this forum. Or give then hope, or give the storyteller a few beers from an audience.

If you want to understand how the Chinese are dragon descendants, understand how dragons and descendants feature in their culture. People in this forum make the same associations with the word 'Spiritual'. For the most part God/gods are personifications. Odin hung himself from a tree in order to gain the knowledge of runes, so there you have self-sacrifice in the same way some people will 'sacrifice' to gain Spiritual wisdom. Something monks still do. Similarly with much of the rest of Norse mythology, it's easy enough to understand the consciousness behind it if you strip away the literal meanings. The Greek Prometheus stole fire (light) from the gods and the other gods weren't happy with him - which is just what happened with the Sumerian Enki who gave the local hominids consciousness. And here we are today, genetically altered cavemen. Other gods/goddesses were personifications, and those allow the human mind to grasp Spiritual concepts and ideas that would probably be too ethereal otherwise.

The Egyptians, the Sumerians and the people of the Indus Valley all had the same root culture, although it's not entirely sure which culture influenced which. Largely, their gods are based on the Shining Ones, or direct variations in their own language. The Sumerians called them 'Els' - ang-els, Micha-el, Rafa-el..... etc. In Sanskrit the root word is 'div' - the Devas, Devi...... In South America they were known as the Viracochas - there more literally as the Golden Ones and in Ireland, where they were probably the origins of fairy/leprechaun myths and the like, they were known as the Tuatha de Danaan or the Children of Diana. They were actual people, only for the most part they were far more advanced - Spiritually and technologically - than the 'locals'. There were 495 cultures across geography and time that described the same people, the only real difference being the language. If you want to understand the origins of so many fairy tales, Google Graham Hancock because he's the go-to guy for this.

I looked into it, and it was fascinating indeed. Some things are facts such as the existence of Dinosaurs, we have proof for their existence, and also for Neanderthals, but what about more recent 'stories': Souls, Atlanteans, Hercules, Jesus, or any other Gods' traces?

What do you think of this? (please see below)
https://pics.me.me/for-the-atheist-t...s-33519406.png

Originally Posted by Greenslade

It's not known if inorganic matter is consciousness, or if it's conscious. Certainly organic Life is considered to have self-awareness to varying degrees and therefore consciousness, and matter is a by-product of consciousness so does that make it conscious also? If you're going down the route of all matter being consciousness, doesn't that change all the rules? I think we need to take one step at a time and work out if we are conscious that we are consciousness, and what are we conscious of?

I think therefore I am.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Moses was certainly a headcase and I dare say after so much time in the desert I'd have seen a burning bush and would have mistaken the sun behind it as flames. Or he had an agenda, because those guys that made the Golden Calf - where did all that gold come from??? - were desperate enough to try anything to get themselves out of a very sticky situation. I've worked in mental health and experienced situations where people have gone into severe psychotic episodes, and some of them pretty damned scary. One woman was in a full body splint because God told her to jump off a bridge, another woman ended up in a puddle of her own urine because she was so terrified at however she saw me. A common one is seeing dark shapes with red eyes (demons), which is actually the subconscious trying to reach the conscious mind and tell it that there's something badly wrong. People become scared of the dark shapes with the white eyes, but they're the 'good guys'. I have schizophrenia due to a fractured personality, and I have to be thoughtful of what I say and do all the time, because it would be easy for another personality to gain control.

Right, but regarding the last sentence, are you aware that your experiences as a medium were genuine and not the 'schizophrenia' in action? For example, with the 'curtains' experience, how do you know that it wasn't 'guessing'? or just a random thought? Not actually being sceptic, but just curious about it.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The fairy tales and the demons are still with us, the human mind has changed that much, fundamentally speaking. You're going itno very scary territory there.

You're very welcome.

You're welcome.

Aaah OK, now we're getting somewhere at last. Most people have the potential for intuition and mediumnship, the only question is whether or not they develop it. Your emotional side is energetic - emotion is energy in motion - which is where intuition and mediumship comes from. You having such deep feelings of loss of a Loved One tells its own tale. I also think that you're putting too much store in your rational mind because of things like the experiences you're relating here, you can't be sure of how your dreams relate to the 'outside world'.

Only you have the dream about living people, the chances of them having the same dream are pretty much nil - but it does happen so don't discount it completely. The dreams might tell you something about the person - I'm flying blind here because I don't know what your dreams are about, depending on what your dreams are. Your might dream that they're a nice person or they like tea and crumpets, and it's how the dream can be related to your external world. What you have there is a piece of information, so in time there might well be confirmation that they are nice, or they become stunned because you offer them tea and crumpets. That way you know your dreams aren't just dreams.

Right, thanks for sharing that. I had dreams with both the deceased smiling at me, and with the living. As for the latter, when I asked them if they had that dream, such as being with me in a car, they said no, that they dreamed something else.

Some people say that they were abducted by aliens, yet the sceptics say it was just a lucid dream, labeling those people as schizophrenic or paranoic and delusional or hallucinating. If personality survives death and spirit has it, then how come mental illness is affecting personality?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Your imagination is your conscious mind, so if you are asleep your imagination has shut down with the rest of it. You can't have an imagination when you sleep. If you're dreaming about dead people I'd think that potentially, you have mediumship abilities that could be developed. Have a think about it. You will most likely find more answers there than you will anywhere else.

I dreamed of deceased people, but not at my will, it just happened randomly.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You're very welcome.

I'm playing devil's advocate here but only to help you understand. And no right or wrong, by the way.

Who is conscious that you see? Who is conscious that you exist?

I am. I am
to both of the questions.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

While we can spout all the babble, perception is reality. We can't perceive of all of time happening all of the time, we can only experience the present moment. The past is memory and we can't actually experience it, the future is expectation so we can't experience that either. In that respect what we are consciousness of - not consciousness itself - is a by-product of experience/brain/mind processes. That's not actually a limit because we can become conscious that there is consciousness to be gained that can only happen within the confines of time limits. How can you become conscious of your Spiritual development if there are no points in time to compare? When you have no realisations then, at some point in the future you have a few, what is the consciousness within that?

No idea sorry, I'm puzzled.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Consciousness within the limits of time isn't any worse than consciousness that all of time happens all of the time - comparisons are of the mind not consciousness itself. However, consciousness encompasses both the consciousness of time and the consciousness of no-time. As far as I can work out, consciousness seems to come in 'layers' and just when I think I've nailed it, it seems as though there's someone sitting atop it all.

Interesting, thanks for sharing. But how can we be so sure about all these?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You're very welcome, and thank you. Thing is, while you're using your rational mind for all this, is it emotionally intelligent to put your emotions to one side when they can be included with your rationality to create a wise mind? Does that seem rational? Yeah I do understand the emotions of loss but they can be extremely powerful, and far more powerful than the rational mind.

Thank you, I appreciate that!

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Reality is perception, and consciousness that is not limited by the human experience is not limited by the human perceptions of reality. All your consciousness has known this far is limited by your physical senses, and that includes the gaining of knowledge. All knowledge - including Spiritual knowledge - is based on input from the senses being processed by the brain/mind, so you're talking about electrical and chemical processes firstly then the perceptual reality of the mind. If you took up mediumship or astral travel, for example, you could experience a reality beyond the five senses. You already have in your dreams, because dreaming of people either living or dead isn't within five-sensory limitations. And I'm guessing that what your dreams told you was what you didn't already know. When you become conscious that you are conscious and what you are conscious of, the limitations are loosened up a little more.

I have no explanations for my dreams, while the sceptics would label them as 'brain playing tricks while the rest of the body being asleep' I really have no clue, as I have no control over what happens in my dreams, am not conscious of them while they are happening. Is it the same in spirit?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Often mediums are given not what is actual reality but what represents consciousness - what's known as avatars or representations of consciousness. Like dreams and their interpretations, symbols are used to convey consciousness that can be 'translated' by the mind - what colour is consciousness? If consciousness has no colour or shape how does the human mind grasp it? The whole movie was essentially a 'translation' of consciousness.

Right, so this comes down to each individual's own interpretation, thanks for sharing that.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

In your reality, are you Spiritual? Do you believe yourself to be Spiritual, do you think you're 'solid'? As you look trough your eyes, are you aware that you don't actually see a 3D image, that everything you see through your eyes has been processed by three separate parts of your brain? We can't actually see in 3D because what we actually see is a 2D image from the back of the eye. I'd bet that you believe you see a flat, 3D image of what you're reading this from. Not so.

I don't know if I would say I'm spiritual. It comes down to each one's own understanding, there's no right or wrong, just human labels I guess. Someone would say that everything is spiritual (both living, including sceptics and non-living, both material and immaterial), some would say spiritual are the people who believe in spirit, or that follow and do different spiritual practices, just labels I guess. Are we deluding ourselves by trying to explain phenomena? I personally don't know the answer.

I think I'm solid, otherwise I would pass through walls. As for the latter, regarding the image, I wasn't aware of that, so thank you.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You're very welcome.

All things come to pass, and this too shall come to pass. At the moment you're still a tad raw with your feelings and I suppose right now they've been your worst enemy, but they can be your greatest friend. You see, you're missing one vital bit of understanding that would turn all of this around for you. The depth to which you feel sorrow and loss is the height to which you Love. That Love is greater than fear and stronger than knowledge, and when you acknowledge that Love it will Light the way Home. Imagination and hope will give way to knowing.

Thank you!I have hope, that will meet the departed ones.Grief is strong indeed but so is the love.Just can't realize that it happened, feels like an empty place right there.When I go and visit some places I have flashbacks with me and the deceased one spending time together...it just hurts.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Take the next step with intention, Freebird. Intend to become conscious of whether your Loved One is enjoying himself or not, or what he's doing that can be understood by the human mind, or feel him watching over you. That is the Spirituality that's beyond question, beyond reason, beyond rationality and when it smacks you upside the head with a bus, you know you're there.

And before you tell me otherwise, don't!!!! The bliss you felt wasn't an hallucination, was it?

Thank you!

The bliss wasn't hallucinations.

I did this, I did my best, did it in a quiet place, I intended to become conscious of the loved one is he is enjoying himself, at first I didn't feel anything, then I tried again, I felt good, but don't know if it was self induced or not, like the placebo.