Questionable spirituality

[freebird]

Hi
I really try to understand some ideas about spirituality but I stumble upon my rational thinking, as spirituality is not a fact, but a set of beliefs.

Having faith doesen't guarantee that something will happen. How can someone distinguish between wishful thinking, hallucinations and genuine experiences? Is what we've been told just a fairy tale by the elders that could not explain experiences? (like believing in Santa Claus). Are spiritual people just delusional or charlatans? Sort of weird to believe in something that lacks proof.

Furthermore, I can't understand why some people say that we chose how our life will play out, or experiencing karma. I can't remember this, and if I would go to a hypnotherapist it might be hallucinations. It doesen't make any sense to suffer in order to promote ascension or whatever, imho, just some excuses I guess. For example, why would someone choose beforehand coming here to suffer by being punched in the face on the street, to experience what, nose bleeding and being angry?

As far as I know Spirits kept informing us on this "love is important" concept but nothing more. Well, we know that love is important, but they don't seem to help with anything else, other than that.

Nobody dead enough came back to tell us how it is on the "other side". I've been waiting for the moment science will reveal this for decades, yet am just disappointed, since all we have is wishful thinking, as atheism materialism and physicalism still stand as they will say that after death it will be like before birth/being conceived/unconscious. Where does the energy go when the computer is shut down?

Lastly, how is the physical binded to the spiritual? How is memory and consciousness non-local if not in the brain? How can spirits see without eyes? We always hear medics saying that a person went unconscious, or being unaware during a surgery

Thanks in advance.

[BigJohn]

You seem to have a pretty good understanding of things.

Things are like building a house with several decks of cards.

[inavalan]

If I told you, you'd argue with me the points you dislike. And why should you believe me or anybody else? You already have some beliefs that you don't question at all about "love", "science", ...

The best way to find out is to tap into your inner source of knowledge, and I agree that you shouldn't go to a hypnotist.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by freebird

Hi
I really try to understand some ideas about spirituality but I stumble upon my rational thinking, as spirituality is not a fact, but a set of beliefs.

Having faith doesen't guarantee that something will happen. How can someone distinguish between wishful thinking, hallucinations and genuine experiences? Is what we've been told just a fairy tale by the elders that could not explain experiences? (like believing in Santa Claus). Are spiritual people just delusional or charlatans? Sort of weird to believe in something that lacks proof.

Furthermore, I can't understand why some people say that we chose how our life will play out, or experiencing karma. I can't remember this, and if I would go to a hypnotherapist it might be hallucinations. It doesen't make any sense to suffer in order to promote ascension or whatever, imho, just some excuses I guess. For example, why would someone choose beforehand coming here to suffer by being punched in the face on the street, to experience what, nose bleeding and being angry?

As far as I know Spirits kept informing us on this "love is important" concept but nothing more. Well, we know that love is important, but they don't seem to help with anything else, other than that.

Nobody dead enough came back to tell us how it is on the "other side". I've been waiting for the moment science will reveal this for decades, yet am just disappointed, since all we have is wishful thinking, as atheism materialism and physicalism still stand as they will say that after death it will be like before birth/being conceived/unconscious. Where does the energy go when the computer is shut down?

Lastly, how is the physical binded to the spiritual? How is memory and consciousness non-local if not in the brain? How can spirits see without eyes? We always hear medics saying that a person went unconscious, or being unaware during a surgery

Thanks in advance.

yeah in the end it comes down to nothing other than what you want to believe. People will call that 'wishful thinking' if it doesn't seem to lead anywhere that others want to go, or they will call it 'genuine experience' if it seems to lead somewhere that others would like to go, but any idea of where it may or may not lead is itself a belief and subject to the same rules as whatever you want to make of the experience itself. As is the desire to either believe what others or saying or discard it.

As far as faith, it is very hard to not try to ground it in knowledge. Which sorta kills the point.... And the equation of 'faith' with 'getting things for oneself' doesn't seem to work either lol!

Some have taken all that as a sign they should discard all beliefs but unfortunately that just moves you to a new level you are unfamiliar with and the same kind of stuff plays out just in a different way that people aren't able to be so critical of.

Noone seems to have gotten past that, at least noone who has been able to leave information about it...

So in the end you are very much on your own as to what you make of things... except that you will want to take on common beliefs others have as well for the sense of sociableness it gives.
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love is important because we spend so much time telling ourselves and each other what we CANNOT do... it is a very imprisoning experience. When you truly choose love you are going beyond that and and allowing even the unallowable to exist. At any cost.

Among other things such a strategy allows others 'room' to work out their various angsts they have about being emotionally imprisoned for so long... although the one who is doing it may feel a great deal of suffering because things aren't going the way they personally would prefer. But that is the whole point, to allow others room to live and grow at cost to yourself. In the end it helps the one who has chosen it too, to become free of the constricting idea that things HAVE to be a certain way.

As far as the spirits they don't seem to know much about the realities of physical existance, they seem to be just reiterating things that were said in the past. In times gone by a lot was said about the need to love, by those who exhibited other characteristics the spirits like... so they reiterate it.

As far as how the physical and the spiritual go together... I don't know the answers to some things but it does seem to be related somehow to the 'feelings' in one's body. Rather than in things one 'looks' at. Which can be influenced by the way you choose to breathe... or not breathe...

Don't know much about memory... but do remember that others may have had the experience of being deep in a dark cave with the lights turned out, and yet being able to 'see' their hand through the darkness. You can do something similar with your body when walking around in dark rooms, even when your eyes are turned in a different way. I presume that is what that is like except in the end the lights will be turned on lol! Maybe memory is somehow similar to that as well, don't know.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by freebird

Hi
I really try to understand some ideas about spirituality but I stumble upon my rational thinking, as spirituality is not a fact, but a set of beliefs.

Having faith doesen't guarantee that something will happen. How can someone distinguish between wishful thinking, hallucinations and genuine experiences? Is what we've been told just a fairy tale by the elders that could not explain experiences? (like believing in Santa Claus). Are spiritual people just delusional or charlatans? Sort of weird to believe in something that lacks proof.

Furthermore, I can't understand why some people say that we chose how our life will play out, or experiencing karma. I can't remember this, and if I would go to a hypnotherapist it might be hallucinations. It doesen't make any sense to suffer in order to promote ascension or whatever, imho, just some excuses I guess. For example, why would someone choose beforehand coming here to suffer by being punched in the face on the street, to experience what, nose bleeding and being angry?

As far as I know Spirits kept informing us on this "love is important" concept but nothing more. Well, we know that love is important, but they don't seem to help with anything else, other than that.

Nobody dead enough came back to tell us how it is on the "other side". I've been waiting for the moment science will reveal this for decades, yet am just disappointed, since all we have is wishful thinking, as atheism materialism and physicalism still stand as they will say that after death it will be like before birth/being conceived/unconscious. Where does the energy go when the computer is shut down?

Lastly, how is the physical binded to the spiritual? How is memory and consciousness non-local if not in the brain? How can spirits see without eyes? We always hear medics saying that a person went unconscious, or being unaware during a surgery

Thanks in advance.

To the "really" spiritual person, what another says about their beliefs and faith is TOTALLY irrelevant, unless they happen to be agreeing with them.

We understand that each of us perceives exactly the same stimuli in totally different ways according to conditioning, ego, the "faith" we have in Science, which of the Chakras are open/closed, how much Grace we are open to receiving from the universe...etc...etc.

There is no definitive, working explanation for what Spirituality actually IS...some say it is "hallucinations" or "psychosis" or "mental illness" etc and ALL another can say is "well, whatever it is that YOU merely "think" about spirituality without knowing it or experiencing it for yourself definitely DOES NOT apply to me".

Then comes all of the "yes, it does" and "no it doesn't" and "yes it does" and "no it doesn't" until one of them has to die to just end that debate.

This is spirituality.

[Azur-el]

Mano, maybe the searching is the solution and we all have it. I was raised between heavy duty science and heavy duty religion. It is the odd experiences that send me realing.

[freebird]

Thanks for the reply. But then again, all are just beliefs, that don't guarantee that something will happen, they are not facts. If someone won't eat and drink anything he/she will die regardless if they believe they won't.

Why isn't the spirit fact?

Originally Posted by inavalan

If I told you, you'd argue with me the points you dislike. And why should you believe me or anybody else? You already have some beliefs that you don't question at all about "love", "science", ...

The best way to find out is to tap into your inner source of knowledge, and I agree that you shouldn't go to a hypnotist.

[freebird]

Firstly, I would like to thank you for answering my questions.

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

yeah in the end it comes down to nothing other than what you want to believe. People will call that 'wishful thinking' if it doesn't seem to lead anywhere that others want to go, or they will call it 'genuine experience' if it seems to lead somewhere that others would like to go, but any idea of where it may or may not lead is itself a belief and subject to the same rules as whatever you want to make of the experience itself. As is the desire to either believe what others or saying or discard it.

Exactly! It just sucks that science hasn't admitted spirituality and seems something top secret/delusional and everything paranormal is considered a hoax, gets ridiculed as a hallucination being promoted by charlatans or assumed that happens to mental ill people (i.e telepathy is regarded as schizophrenia, as there is no such thing as psychic as there is no proof)

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

As far as faith, it is very hard to not try to ground it in knowledge. Which sorta kills the point.... And the equation of 'faith' with 'getting things for oneself' doesn't seem to work either lol!

Yep, it's a contradiction.
Some mediums are charlatans that want to fool people and abuse their weakness and emotions, just to earn money, and some other just give general information that is applicable to most of us "You are loved and looked after by your loved ones from the afterlife"

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

Some have taken all that as a sign they should discard all beliefs but unfortunately that just moves you to a new level you are unfamiliar with and the same kind of stuff plays out just in a different way that people aren't able to be so critical of.

Yes, right, this doesen't solve anything.

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

Noone seems to have gotten past that, at least noone who has been able to leave information about it...

So in the end you are very much on your own as to what you make of things... except that you will want to take on common beliefs others have as well for the sense of sociableness it gives.

Right, I know that everyone is entitled to his/her beliefs, but there are some facts that don't require variations of beliefs.

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Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

love is important because we spend so much time telling ourselves and each other what we CANNOT do... it is a very imprisoning experience. When you truly choose love you are going beyond that and and allowing even the unallowable to exist. At any cost.

True, but why don't spirits tell us something else rather than just repeating themselves with "love is important" and "you are here to learn lessons". This "school" thing just annoys me. Plus, why would I choose to experience suffering in order to learn what? Forgiveness? To help others with what? As I stated above, why would someone choose to be punched in the face to have a bleeding nose/deviated septum and feel angry or sad? If spirit knew this beforehand why would they choose. It's like I turn off the lights and walk blindly through the room, just to trip and fall to hurt myself...

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

Among other things such a strategy allows others 'room' to work out their various angsts they have about being emotionally imprisoned for so long... although the one who is doing it may feel a great deal of suffering because things aren't going the way they personally would prefer. But that is the whole point, to allow others room to live and grow at cost to yourself. In the end it helps the one who has chosen it too, to become free of the constricting idea that things HAVE to be a certain way.


As far as the spirits they don't seem to know much about the realities of physical existance, they seem to be just reiterating things that were said in the past. In times gone by a lot was said about the need to love, by those who exhibited other characteristics the spirits like... so they reiterate it.

Yes, they reiterate that love is important and that the living beings are loved, well we know this. Why don't they tell us how to cure Cancer? Let me guess, because people won't suffer as much and they won't learn their lessons accordingly. This is what I dislike about beliefs, that they are just forms of "merely explaining"

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

As far as how the physical and the spiritual go together... I don't know the answers to some things but it does seem to be related somehow to the 'feelings' in one's body. Rather than in things one 'looks' at. Which can be influenced by the way you choose to breathe... or not breathe...

That's the thing, we are atoms bounded together regardless of someone's belief. This is fact, so how does physical interact with spirit?

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

Don't know much about memory... but do remember that others may have had the experience of being deep in a dark cave with the lights turned out, and yet being able to 'see' their hand through the darkness. You can do something similar with your body when walking around in dark rooms, even when your eyes are turned in a different way. I presume that is what that is like except in the end the lights will be turned on lol! Maybe memory is somehow similar to that as well, don't know.

What about Alzheimer's then? Damaging the brain impairs memory thinking and personality.

Might be as you say, I keep an open mind, but am always honest with myself differentiating between fact and fiction/wishful thinking

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

To the "really" spiritual person, what another says about their beliefs and faith is TOTALLY irrelevant, unless they happen to be agreeing with them.

We understand that each of us perceives exactly the same stimuli in totally different ways according to conditioning, ego, the "faith" we have in Science, which of the Chakras are open/closed, how much Grace we are open to receiving from the universe...etc...etc.

There is no definitive, working explanation for what Spirituality actually IS...some say it is "hallucinations" or "psychosis" or "mental illness" etc and ALL another can say is "well, whatever it is that YOU merely "think" about spirituality without knowing it or experiencing it for yourself definitely DOES NOT apply to me".

Then comes all of the "yes, it does" and "no it doesn't" and "yes it does" and "no it doesn't" until one of them has to die to just end that debate.

This is spirituality.

I agree, but remember there are times when people stumble upon Facts. If someone says that if he/she jumps into a freezing cold lake their body temperature will be the same as that is his/her belief. Well, guess what, their body temperature will drop regardless of their belief. One is fact and the other is fiction. At the moment this is how I perceive it, maybe it's just my perception, but I see science as mocking spirituality, as all they got is merely beliefs, whereas science has facts and proof. Similar to atheists and physicalists mocking theists.

This is what differentiates facts from fiction as certain phenomena will happen regardless of someone's beliefs.

[freebird]

It was a saying that science builds airplanes, and religion makes them crash into buildings.

Originally Posted by Azur-el

Mano, maybe the searching is the solution and we all have it. I was raised between heavy duty science and heavy duty religion. It is the odd experiences that send me realing.