St. Augustine - Christianity Before Christ

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Good question for Honza. I can see that it has not yet been answered.

From many previous experiences with Honza, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for an answer

Sky123 and Still_Waters

I will keep this brief since you are asking me to basically explain the whole Book.

It is actually the law of sin and death.
(khaw-taw or Sin)= to miss or to be lead astray.(acting outside of the Love of God)

(death) probably self explanatory (I will just add the destroyer and death angel,kill steel and destroy)

2 Cor. 3:6 [Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.]
((letter refers to the law of Moses.))

2 Cor. 3:7
[But if the ministration of death written and engraven in stones]

And so on and so forth.
Moral law yes, but us humans being the butt heads we are, we could not even follow the 1 commandment.("Don't eat from that tree")

That's why I entered into the NEW CONTRACT with God. Jesus pays for all my butt head moves until I can fully pack up from under that tree and move on over to the TREE of LIFE.
Where I only have 2 commandments and they loosely go like this.
1.LOVE God with all your heart mind and spirit.

Then

2.LOVE my neighbor as I LOVE myself.

And all these 2 laws can be fulfilled by this 1 thing. The most excellent WAY.
LOVE
God is LOVE
See the pattern.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

Sky123 and Still_Waters

I will keep this brief since you are asking me to basically explain the whole Book.

It is actually the law of sin and death.
(khaw-taw or Sin)= to miss or to be lead astray.(acting outside of the Love of God)

(death) probably self explanatory (I will just add the destroyer and death angel,kill steel and destroy)

2 Cor. 3:6 [Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.]
((letter refers to the law of Moses.))

2 Cor. 3:7
[But if the ministration of death written and engraven in stones]

And so on and so forth.
Moral law yes, but us humans being the butt heads we are, we could not even follow the 1 commandment.("Don't eat from that tree")

That's why I entered into the NEW CONTRACT with God. Jesus pays for all my butt head moves until I can fully pack up from under that tree and move on over to the TREE of LIFE.
Where I only have 2 commandments and they loosely go like this.
1.LOVE God with all your heart mind and spirit.

Then

2.LOVE my neighbor as I LOVE myself.

And all these 2 laws can be fulfilled by this 1 thing. The most excellent WAY.
LOVE
God is LOVE
See the pattern.

I have often used a slight paraphrase of that Corinthians 3:6 quote without realizing its source. Verily, the Law kills but God is THE Living Spirit." That is precisely why one eventually gravitates from the Book towards stillness and purity of heart (Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God.) so that one can establish direct communion with the LIVING Spirit in each and every moment.

By the way, my definition of "sin" is very similar to yours. It is "missing the mark" and/or "separation from God". Separation from God and the Divine Will is the root cause of all problems (IMHO).

On your last point, how do you define "LOVE"? The word has been so mis-used in overly sentimental ways that the word has lost much of its power. How do you define LOVE, particularly DIVINE LOVE?

Still_Waters

I can only define LOVE through my experience.I often have said I wish I could bottle it, so someone can drink, so they know what I am talking about.You know trying to describe the indescribable.

LOVE= Everlasting,The Power of God, limitless , Pure HOME , The thing that will blow our minds (with a warm gentle breeze) when we are free from this present form. Total acceptance. I use to say unconditional but somehow that seems a bit off because there is always a gentle correction of error. Divine,Holy,Sacred. God works all things to the good for those that LOVE him.
I'll stop there but I could go on. Oh yeah prodigal son story says a lot.Samaritan woman at the well (LOVE).Prostitute, Jesus did not condemn (LOVE) Forgive them Father they know not what they do. (LOVE)

Gods LOVE doesn't see victim and villain only his children and coos us all.

I love the Bible because of the love I see being expressed. (Dove) (Heart) (Beloved) (God so Loved) (God is Love) (Abraham willing to sacrifice his son)(When you start reading the Bible through the 1 eyed Love it comes alive)(Light) Light always has Love.
When ever you act from pure Love there is liberty.(law of liberty)

I better quit I feel the fire and brimstone people stirring.

[theophilus]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I agree with you that "Jesus came to remind of these truths" of which "the whole word had a correct knowledge at one time". That is consistent with what I posted as well.

However, please explain why you believe that "we are under God's condemnation now".

Also, please explain your understanding of HOW Jesus' death atoned for OUR sins and HOW His resurrection is proof that his death was effective.

(Are you aware that other beings --- Milarepa the Tibetan Yogi, Bodhidrhama the Zen Master, Sri Yukteswar the Hindu master, etc. --- also rose from the dead? What do you think their resurrections suggest?)

We are under condemnation because none of us has lived up to what we know to be true. Sin can be atoned for by the blood of a perfect sacrifice and Jesus came to be that sacrifice for us. Others have been raised from the dead by the actions of another but Jesus is the only one who raised himself from the dead.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

Still_Waters

I can only define LOVE through my experience.I often have said I wish I could bottle it, so someone can drink, so they know what I am talking about.You know trying to describe the indescribable.

LOVE= Everlasting,The Power of God, limitless , Pure HOME , The thing that will blow our minds (with a warm gentle breeze) when we are free from this present form. Total acceptance. I use to say unconditional but somehow that seems a bit off because there is always a gentle correction of error. Divine,Holy,Sacred. God works all things to the good for those that LOVE him.
I'll stop there but I could go on. Oh yeah prodigal son story says a lot.Samaritan woman at the well (LOVE).Prostitute, Jesus did not condemn (LOVE) Forgive them Father they know not what they do. (LOVE)

Gods LOVE doesn't see victim and villain only his children and coos us all.

I love the Bible because of the love I see being expressed. (Dove) (Heart) (Beloved) (God so Loved) (God is Love) (Abraham willing to sacrifice his son)(When you start reading the Bible through the 1 eyed Love it comes alive)(Light) Light always has Love.
When ever you act from pure Love there is liberty.(law of liberty)

I better quit I feel the fire and brimstone people stirring.

Thank you for your response. I hear where you're at.

Still_Waters

The question one must ask is.

Do you believe in the Trinity.

Can you believe that God sent 1 part of the Trinity here on earth. That 1 part of the 3 has many names (Way,Truth,Life,Even eternal Life,Light,Word,Lamb,Son,Christ,Messiah) and so on.

God sent that 1 part of 3 to Live a life in water and, blood and, Spirit and, was this 1 of 3 Spirits of God and if He failed( 1 spot of sin) there would be no Hope . All in all, He succeeded his mission (Lamb) and now we can leave the tree of good and Evil and eat from the Tree of life.

I have sinned wickedly. I alone have no hope. I have no way to wash myself to pure (Like a Virgin), so that I will be excepted back home to my Father which is PURE. So I wash in the Blood of the 1 of 3 that God has provided by His LOVE.Jump on in, the water is still and alive.

I now can call the 1 of 3 Friend and I receive the comforter and Gods kingdom is at hand.

1 John is a good letter that talks about it in full.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by theophilus

We are under condemnation because none of us has lived up to what we know to be true. Sin can be atoned for by the blood of a perfect sacrifice and Jesus came to be that sacrifice for us. Others have been raised from the dead by the actions of another but Jesus is the only one who raised himself from the dead.

Are you aware of how the "perfect blood sacrifice" became the majority belief in Christianity and are you also aware that there is a minority belief (St. Bonaventure, Duns Scotus, the early Franciscans) that does not subscribe to the "blood sacrifice" belief. Personally, I don't subscribe to the "blood sacrifice" belief that Jesus had to die the bloody death to satisfy God the Father's bloodthirsty anger.

By the way, the minority opinion which was never deemed heretical and is still preached by the Franciscans is that Jesus came NOT to change God's mind about man but to change man's mind about the loving nature of God.

First, let's discuss how the "blood sacrifice" theory became the majority opinion which is obviously held by many. Details are in the link provided below with a major excerpt included directly in this post.

http://www.theologian-theology.com/t...od-man-anselm/

The "Blood Sacrifice" theory (and it is a theory) originated with St. Anselm, Archbishop of Canterbury, in the middle ages. Based on the Judaic history of "sacrifice", Jesus' death was described as a sacrifice and, believe it or not, the sacrifice was originally considered to be made to the devil. Anselm disputed that theory but retained the "sacrifice" concept while attributing the sacrifice to God the Father. For over 1000 years, the early Christian Church believed in the concept of sacrifice to the devil. (Read below from the article.)

EXCERPT FROM ARTICLE:

Anselm begins by rejecting the ransom theory of the church fathers whereby Jesus’s sacrifice was a ransom paid to the devil by God, freeing sinners from the devil’s mastery. He rejects this theory on the grounds that it attributes too much authority to the devil and not enough to God. For example, Anselm argues that since both the devil and humans belong to God, “what case, then, did God have to plead with his own creature [the devil], concerning his own creature [humans] (AC-108)?”

ALTERNATE ORTHODOXY:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9Azd93Luko

If you really are sincerely interested in arriving at the Truth, you may want to listen to this video (35 minutes) on the alternate orthodoxy proclaimed by the early Franciscans AFTER Anselm wrote his "Why God Became Man" essay. As I said before, it was never ruled heretical in any way at a time when the Catholic Church took very strong positions about heresy. (It is almost like the US Supreme Court having both a majority opinion and a minority opinion.) Father Richard Rohr is a Franciscan priest living today in good standing with the Roman Catholic Church and he is the principal speaker. His primary point, as noted above, is that "Jesus did NOT come to change God's mind about man (via the "perfect blood sacrifice"). Jesus came to change man's mind about the (ever-loving) God". This makes far more sense to me than the "blood sacrifice" theory that has been the majority position for so long.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

Still_Waters

The question one must ask is.

Do you believe in the Trinity.

Can you believe that God sent 1 part of the Trinity here on earth. That 1 part of the 3 has many names (Way,Truth,Life,Even eternal Life,Light,Word,Lamb,Son,Christ,Messiah) and so on.

God sent that 1 part of 3 to Live a life in water and, blood and, Spirit and, was this 1 of 3 Spirits of God and if He failed( 1 spot of sin) there would be no Hope . All in all, He succeeded his mission (Lamb) and now we can leave the tree of good and Evil and eat from the Tree of life.

I have sinned wickedly. I alone have no hope. I have no way to wash myself to pure (Like a Virgin), so that I will be excepted back home to my Father which is PURE. So I wash in the Blood of the 1 of 3 that God has provided by His LOVE.Jump on in, the water is still and alive.

I now can call the 1 of 3 Friend and I receive the comforter and Gods kingdom is at hand.

1 John is a good letter that talks about it in full.

Actually and probably to your great surprise, I do accept the Trinity as three aspects of the Divine. Using Christian terminology, ...

1. God Transcendent - God the Father
2. God With Us - God manifested as the purest of men as in the case of Jesus
3. Go Within Us - The Holy Spirit

If you are conversant with Hinduism, you will know that there also is a Trinity which corresponds very closely to the Christian Trinity.

Jewish Kabbalists often refer to God as "The Transcendent One That is Immanent" which covers two of the three cases noted above.

P.S. I must give credit to Amilius777 on this site as the description of the Christian Trinity above was gleaned from Amilius777's posts and stuck with me.

[sky]

Can anyone see the Tao in the Trinity? Something came to me regarding the Tao, Ying/Yang and Chi while chatting to another Poster earlier on about Yin/Yang. I haven't worked out how to put in into words yet but it's there somewhere, I must dig deeper or just let it come together when it happens