Dealing (or not) with 'problematic' persons

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Hi 7L

My point about Jesus remains that copying/imitating his outer actions are relatively moot without having attained his inner vision and Love

Once the inner is correct, the outer naturally syncs into right action (as opposed to theoretical violence etc.)

I have no quarrel with your statements herein

BT

Hey there BT
Yes...it is all really about the balance, the illumination, and the outpouring manifestation.

Did you get a chance to check my post #19 on http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=118888
? (thanks to DavidSun for posting link)
I talked quite a bit about the model of Jesus for humanity specifically with regard to love in its two primary energetic forces of lovingkindness and equanimity...thought you might enjoy and have some thoughts for this thread or that

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Haven't yet gotten around to reading thread at http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=118888 (I assume this is the one you alluded to 7L), but I look forward to doing so.

Yes - it's post #19 on that thread & thanks for getting the link.
Thought it might add to this discussion as well...

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by Molearner

lemex,

This is it......this is the essence IMO also. The assertions of right and wrong are basically nothing more than a manifestation of judgement. The more intellectual we become the more we abandon forgiveness. A good case can be made for believing that the ego is the source of all sin. The ego run amok that is.......there are functions of the ego that are necessary for this world.

Molearner - Forgive me if I am intruding...

Before presenting arguments, let me ask you if you thought 'right and wrong' was 'nothing more than a manifestation of judgement' to Jesus? In any case, what do you think was the basis of Jesus' morality?

And while I agree the ego can be seen as the source of all sin, at the same time I think the ego, controlled, can paradoxically be instrumental to transcendence as well.

Originally Posted by Kioma

Molearner - Forgive me if I am intruding...

Before presenting arguments, let me ask you if you thought 'right and wrong' was 'nothing more than a manifestation of judgement' to Jesus? In any case, what do you think was the basis of Jesus' morality?

And while I agree the ego can be seen as the source of all sin, at the same time I think the ego, controlled, can paradoxically be instrumental to transcendence as well.

Kioma,

Indeed, a legitimate question. My take: as mortals....we assert right or wrong(i.e. a debatable proposition). With Jesus, I see it as a statement of fact and as an observation on his part. Not judgement in the ultimate condemnatory sense(once and for all) but with the caveat that forgiveness is possible through repentance. Mortals tend to speak of judgement as having an aspect of finality. The basis of the morality of Jesus was his absolute alignment with divinity(God) and his oneness with the Holy Spirit(the source of all truth). This, of course, is a Christian viewpoint perhaps not acceptable to all people.

I did qualify my comments on the ego by stating that it has some necessary purposes in this world. Among them would be that it could serve to be instrumental to transcendence(i.e. creates the desire to better ourselves and the way we are perceived by others). But it is a crutch that must eventually be discarded when we recognize that it is strengthening our self-image. We can acknowledge that it served a purpose in our development but we are to learn that reliance on it has inherent dangers. Without the impetus to distance ourselves from the programs of the ego we will remain in service to pride and never achieve true humility.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Enjoyed reading what you wrote, 7L, Doing so was a good (mind) 'stretching' exercise (for me).

It took me a while to get a 'feel' for what you regard as beng and so mean when you use the words "equanimity" and "lovingkindness" (which are not the meanings which (immediately) come to (my) mind when I think of and use them). I believe I am beginning to (more clearly) see what you are pointing to now.

I liked and very much related to (what I thought was what you intended to get across by) the analog of the creative 'tension' (for want a black hole's tendency to pulling everything 'in' and 'dissolve' individual 'identities' in its 'core' in the process and the tendency of the universe to expand (more an more) so as to express a greater and greater differential expression ad infinitum.

For what it may be worth, more specifically described 'common' (i.e. generally experienced) examples or instances of what you label "equanimity" and "lovingkindness" would greatly help your getting across you major finger-points, I think. Not that weren't some mentioned in what you wrote, but the more different kinds of examples presented the more 'in depth' perspective others (readers) would get in relation to what you are aiming to 'reveal'. At least, I think and feel that would be true in my case.

Greatly appreciating the perspicacty of your 'synthesis' of different levels or dimensions of the truth pertaining to our One as Many and Many in One Being-n-Doing(s) --

Hey there Davidsun...
I'm glad to help you work in a bit of exercise!
I will, by way of broad description, respond to Molearner's key traits (per Jesus as role model) and divide them up under the classic "column" Kabbalistically, by whether they are traditionally considered primarily to be traits of the right hand (lovingkindness) or traits of the left hand (equanimity). Both are united aspects of authentic love and can never be wholly separated without intrinsically containing the other side of the energetic spectrum. Like Yin and Yang.

Originally Posted by Molearner

blossomingtree,

Thanks.....:) This is a good and relevant observation. Some Orthodox theologians make a distinction of being made in the image of God vs. being made in the likeness of God. Basically they assert that being made in the image of God means that man has the potential to become like God. This means that man has free will, a sense of reason, and a sense of moral responsibility. Actual likeness of God can only be achieved by degrees. They say, for example, that the likeness of Christ consists of truth, meekness, righteousness, humility and love of mankind. These are acquired and developed traits....thus they come by degrees. God became like man through the incarnation while for man to become like God he must access the Holy Spirit. Thus, as you point to, imitation is one thing.......being is another totally different thing.

Molearner...a lovely post as always. I'm going to reference your above list to give examples of these two foundational energies or aspects of authentic love

Lovingkindness: love of humankind, wisdom, gentleness and abnegation (~humility); acceptance and mercy
Equanimity: righteousness, illumination and judgment, strength and self-worth; discernment and severity
Both: Truth (Beauty)

All of these are aspects of One, of authentic love, and of the model Jesus embodied and presents to humanity.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by lemex

Jesus is I think seems like the ultimate ink blot test, it shows what's in our hearts and minds. What do you see is within. I've been listening to the love shown here.
I was thinking about achieving lovinglykindness, not only Jesus but us.

How is that achieved.
Jesus was able to elevate his energy just as we must.

One of the most important posts imo talked about forgiving. As far as I know out of all the pages thus far, it was the only time the secret was said. If a person wishes to move from a lower vibration to higher one it will require many times forgiving and giving up the eqo instead of holding on to our (lower) vibration.

Balance can be achieved by forgiving just as Jesus did. If we are going to talk about Jesus as an example maybe we should look at what he did human wise and display the qualities he specifically talked about and exhibit some of what he enlightens us by telling us. You know, back in his day he was a problematic person.

LOL@Rorschach test...nice analogy ;)

Well...very broadly speaking in my understanding, the one thing we need to keep in mind that love is more than lovingkindness. It is also equanimity. And within each of these are many various aspects, as we conceive of these things.

In Hebrew, authentic love is ahava...it comprises all. The qualities of lovingkindness and compassion (etc) are named as chesed and the qualities of equanimity and judgment (etc) are named as gevura.

To strengthen and deepen lovingkindness...we have to strengthen equanimity. To strengthen and deepen equanimity, we have to strengthen lovingkindness. Both of these have to proceed more or less in tandem.

That's why we often fail, or become stuck or fail to progress. Because pursuing one with an imbalance of the other doesn't work. We aren't constructed that way, spiritually. Because equanimity requires great strength to attain, it is difficult for many to hold, literally. It requires a love of humankind and an expansive heart which is also strong and courageous, disciplined and humble. You can see the traits are already thoroughly mixed regarding lovingkindness and equanimity, as is natural.

Likewise, we cannot progress beyond a certain point on our own. Beyond a certain point (regardless of how that may vary), we must support one another and also our communal humanity, that we may all begin to move forward together. This is also difficult for many. Both of these require a love of others and a progression beyond service to self.

For many it seems as if this is cart before horse unless we open to grace, because many experience an innate orientation to selfishness and narcissism, which is further enabled or activated in many under our mainstream cultural paradigm(s). That is where free will and intent comes into this. We must ask and desire to receive strength of heart and strength of character or will.

We've discussed forgiveness at some length. Forgiveness is a good, helpful, and necessary but not sufficient aspect of reconciliation.
So is remorse, contrition, repentence, and actively seeking to make amends.

I think folks really need to understand and reflect on this. True reconciliation and the fullness of spiritual healing and growth ultimately is not...is ultimately never...simply a one-sided affair. It is deeply engaged and interconnected, and I mean in the most concrete, personal, day-to-day, tangible sense. I know this too is difficult for folks, both those who struggle to forgive and those who struggle with remorse, contrition, and repentence, including apologising and making amends here and now in this material realm in which we have incarnated for just these purposes...to approach a deeper, fuller, and more reciprocal reconciliation.

It's particularly frustrating when one side has forgiven, or who has approached with true remorse and contrition, but where the other side is not yet available or willing. But this is what is...and these are the deeper challenges that remain for humanity as we take our next steps out of spiritual infancy and into spiritual childhood or whatever is next

Peace & blessings
7L

[prasannatrust]

Dealing With the Difficult People in Your Workplace. If you've been working for awhile, you've experienced workplaces in which all sorts of dysfunctional approaches to dealing with a difficult coworker have been tried. Putting an anonymous note in the person's mailbox is not a viable option.
Regards
Swami Sukhabodhanada

[DoublyVenomous]

Use the "problematic" people to learn. Sometimes we learn from them more than from those who love us, they're called hard life lessons which make us feel alive.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by lemex

Jesus is I think seems like the ultimate ink blot test, ... You know, back in his day he was a problematic person.

Yah, 'immoral' peeps find 'morality' (meaning valuing what serves LIFE, not their personal preferences, best to be a 'problem' - a 'thorny' one.

Many regard me as being a 'prick' for that very reason. Some - as verbalized in this thread - even regard me as a being 'pathetic' prick, who they feel 'sorry' for and feel 'sympathetic' to because of what they imagine to be my 'suffering'!

Others expressed 'understanding' in said regard (in this thread), reinforcing such attitude by treating it as 'respectable'!

What a wonder-full world this is - Woohoo! LOL

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hey there BT
Yes...it is all really about the balance, the illumination, and the outpouring manifestation.

Did you get a chance to check my post #19 on http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=118888
? (thanks to DavidSun for posting link)
I talked quite a bit about the model of Jesus for humanity specifically with regard to love in its two primary energetic forces of lovingkindness and equanimity...thought you might enjoy and have some thoughts for this thread or that

Peace & blessings
7L

Hi 7L

Heya you

I apologize - I'm really up against the wall lately with time so have not had the opportunity to read that thread in detail. I am sure they are good thoughts however, and your contributions are always lovely and positive.

Take care my friend

BT