MIRACLES, the Miraculous... Weighing in...

[Morpheus]

Regarding what we have learned over the last many decades in science, regarding Quantum Physics, and concerning the true nature of the material world; The case for the effectiveness of faith, and including what many ascribe to involving "majic" and the miraculous, ought to be a given.
True?


There are confirmations in all manner of new research in science for the power of faith, and belief, regarding it's effectiveness in the world.
Yet we find on the, "Spiritual Forum", and in the Christianity sub forum, adverdance to accepting what the Bible says about the, "Virgin Birth", and also to the various miracles ascribed to Jesus in the New Testament, being evident. Including by a, "Reverend", so called.
Isn't this curious? And, what is the explanation for it?

The same people who may advocate Shamanism, or other occult or supernatural realities, seem disaffected towards references to the miraculous, related in the Bible...
Why is that?
And...as if anything is too hard for God! (However they may concieve God to be.)

And yet, in all areas of new research, science itself is telling us about the world that has not been apparent on the surface of things.
From the awareness and consciousness of plants, and even in inanimate objects...to what occurs in water molecules when faith and prayer is applied...and all other kinds of miracles involving the thought processes, and belief having an effect on the, "outter world".
Yet, the Virgin Birth of Christ, and as prophecied in the Old testament, is denied.
In fact, at times Prophecy itself in the Bible is denied as well, by these same people!
(Even while we see the same transpiring today.)
Yet, predictions by Nostradamus and others, such as Edgar Cacey hold sway...

In fact, these same, "spiritual", people are acting like the religious fundamentalists, who will deny the same involving science revelations!!!
Are they then, non religious fundies, as it were?

A curious situation, isn't it.

Hi Morph, may I ask you; do you believe that shamanism and occult practices are evil? And naturally I'm not talking about the dark or black arts here... of course they are full of wickedness. But I'm talking here about the white magic as they call it.

I even know a few Christians who practice folk magic with candles and crystals while reading certain Bible verses and saying a prayer.

Weigh in on these things if you will please... Thanks.

[Morpheus]

I don't feel these things are necessary Mind's. Did Jesus use candles or wands, or such?
Any of the saints to whom miracles are attributed? I have seen miracles, and the manifestation of prayer in the world without such, also.

I was addressing the mindset of people who refer to these things as, "spiritual", though. Who also consider themselves such.
The topic at hand is about, "Miracles", manifested in the outer world.
The power of faith, and belief regarding the same

However, there is ritual in, "religion", isn't there.
Particularly in the Old Testament involving certain objects. Which is carried over in the catholic Church, as well.
As I have said prior... at their essence, all of the faiths agree.
Shamanism, for one, is a faith, and is called a, "Religion".

Originally Posted by Morpheus

I don't feel these things are necessary Mind's. Did Jesus use candles or wands, or such?
Any of the saints to whom miracles are attributed? I have seen miracles, and the manifestation of prayer in the world without such, also.

I was addressing the mindset of people who refer to these things as, "spiritual", though. Who also consider themselves such.
The topic at hand is about, "Miracles", manifested in the outer world.
The power of faith, and belief regarding the same

However, there is ritual in, "religion", isn't there.
Particularly in the Old Testament involving certain objects. Which is carried over in the catholic Church, as well.
As I have said prior... at their essence, all of the faiths agree.
Shamanism, for one, is a faith, and is called a, "Religion".

I see what your saying, but that doesn't really tell me what you think about these other religions and their rituals. Do you think persons, or better yet, Christians who practice such rituals are doing an evil work?

I myself believe in the miraculous, and have seen things manifest purely from prayer and faith; but have also seen people use the previous mentioned Christian folk magic and attain wonderful results..

Your thought on these rituals... right, wrong? Good evil?

[Morpheus]

They have no relevance for me. But, ritual aids faith, true?

However, I am of the mind that it is about how they are used, regarding the,
"...Thoughts and the intents of the heart."

"I myself believe in the miraculous, and have seen things manifest purely from prayer and faith; but have also seen people use the previous mentioned Christian folk magic and attain wonderful results.."

And so, as the scripture say's in 1Cor. 13, "Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things..."

Why then is there a problem with the Virgin Birth of Christ, or any other miracle in the Bible?

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Why then is there a problem with the Virgin Birth of Christ, or any other miracle in the Bible?

I personally don't have a problem with the miracles of the Bible. If those people and events were real, then I believed it probably happened as it says. But as we discussed before, the debates can be endless as to whether some of the events in the Bible are actual history, we do lack quite a bit of evidence concerning some of the happenings and people.

But even if the Bible is just metaphorical it does not detract from the spiritual truth of what is written therein. We all may have different views on the Bible or the Christ, but in the end, it mostly trickles down to almost the same thing.

For instance, years back when I was dating; I was having no luck meeting anybody decent. So one day I stopped trying so hard and opened up the Bible to Genesis 2:18 which reads, "and the Lord God said,it is not good for man to be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him."

So I basically said, "okay God, you said that it is not good for man to be alone; so I place all the care of wanting to meet someone comparable to me in your hands. I'm not going to struggle with it, or exert so much energy... I just trust you to bring it to pass in your perfect way according to the spiritual truth written in Genesis 2:18."

Three days later, I met the woman that I am happily married to... There were no wands or crystals involved there, (although I sometimes use those things.) There was no religious affiliation tied in to what I did... I just based my request on a higher spiritual truth that is outlined in the Bible, and it worked out and manifested in a perfect way...

So yes, the Bible is a miraculous book.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Mind's Eye

I personally don't have a problem with the miracles of the Bible. If those people and events were real, then I believed it probably happened as it says. But as we discussed before, the debates can be endless as to whether some of the events in the Bible are actual history, we do lack quite a bit of evidence concerning some of the happenings and people.

But even if the Bible is just metaphorical it does not detract from the spiritual truth of what is written therein. We all may have different views on the Bible or the Christ, but in the end, it mostly trickles down to almost the same thing.

For instance, years back when I was dating; I was having no luck meeting anybody decent. So one day I stopped trying so hard and opened up the Bible to Genesis 2:18 which reads, "and the Lord God said,it is not good for man to be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him."

So I basically said, "okay God, you said that it is not good for man to be alone; so I place all the care of wanting to meet someone comparable to me in your hands. I'm not going to struggle with it, or exert so much energy... I just trust you to bring it to pass in your perfect way according to the spiritual truth written in Genesis 2:18."

Three days later, I met the woman that I am happily married to... There were no wands or crystals involved there, (although I sometimes use those things.) There was no religious affiliation tied in to what I did... I just based my request on a higher spiritual truth that is outlined in the Bible, and it worked out and manifested in a perfect way...

So yes, the Bible is a miraculous book.

That's a great story, Mind's! Thanks for sharing that.

As I stated, as with any other ritual, those things are aid to faith.
Like wise, there has been reference in theology to the, "point of contact", one needs to manifest faith.
High profile evangelists send out prayer cloths, or other items to help people. They have parodied extensively, along with the "touching the T.V." form. But, sometimes people need such, and have realized answered prayer.

We see it in the Bible, such as the woman with the certain malady, and how she crawled through the crowd to touch the Lord's clothing.
That was where her faith was.
Then, in Acts, there is something written about how if an apostles shadow fell on the lame, they were healed.
Then, also something about Paul's hankerchief involving miracles.

But, there is a difference with that, and "Sorcery", or, "Witchcraft" as cited in the Bible. Which is about ego, and, bending reality to attain material things in the world, instead of trusting God. Including consortion with demons, and,
involving harm to, "enemies".

Such things affect the life and soul in negative manner. So again, it is about the heart, intent, and spirit of the person.

Originally Posted by Morpheus

But, there is a difference with that, and "Sorcery", or, "Witchcraft" as cited in the Bible. Which is about ego, and, bending reality to attain material things in the world, instead of trusting God. Including consortion with demons, and,
involving harm to, "enemies".

Such things affect the life and soul in negative manner. So again, it is about the heart, intent, and spirit of the person.

I agree, any ritual that is used with the intent of breaking up relationships, ending marriages, causing illness or harm to another etc is not only involving the ego; but spiritual forces that can backlash and cause serious harm to the one employing it. All spiritual gifts and the rites that can aid us in releasing that spiritual force that we call faith or magic, were handed down to us to help ourselves and others... not as a means to harm and control.

I think the stories of Jesus illustrate the above statement perfectly; as they depict a man possessing all of the divine powers of the Godhead, yet he never used them to harm any or seek revenge on his enemies... even when they were cursing him and nailing him to cross. With great power comes great responsibility.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Mind's Eye

... one day I stopped trying so hard and opened up the Bible.... to Genesis 2:18 ....
So I basically said, "okay God, ....
Three days later, I met the woman that I am happily married to...

YAY! I LOVE IT!!

Rely on God, always.

[Miss Hepburn]

Hi Morphie,
I am not a good one to comment on anyone else and their belief or lack of belief in the Virgin Birth.
(I'm too happy and self-centered in my happiness to mind what other's believe anymore...
I know the whole world is in His Hands... whatever
all His children believe or don't believe in.)

My mind and heart suckles at the breast of my Creator and these things
are just part of Man's broad diversities and cultures.
I enjoy all the views.


What if everything we think is true - isn't? As I think Xan asked....I love that!!! Opens the Mind.