Christians anonymous

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by msmcgee

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am beginning to feel that many here are almost as fundamental in their belief of the things discussed here as many Christians are of Christianity.

It's to be expected in any spirituality because we're human, regardless of how good or loving the teachings are. We like to be right and be a part of a group mentality. Some want to lead others and some want to be lead. It feels safe and secure to be right and have others to agree with us. We can project our human weakness on the 'outsiders' who are different, and feel good that we have the truth. We can use spirituality to cover up our nature and not have to mature emotionally. We do human stuff all the time because that's the way we are, no spirituality is going to change that unless we want to change.

My best friend just called me asking me if I wanted to go grocery shopping with her. She just got done doing her Black Friday thing, which I absolutely will not do, but we grocery shop together a lot and later I was going to be going to the same store she is anyway, so we're gonna go together now.

So I'm going to ponder a few things while I am gone and come back to this wonderful discussion. Thank you for sane and rational discourse on these topics. It's quite refreshing. I'll be back later!

Well this thread has been busy since I posted 5 days ago.

Thanks Newfreedom9, msmcgee, Seawolf and Psychoslice for sharing your experiences. I can sooo relate to what you were talking about, with regard to corruption and deception in Christian Churches.
There are a lot of issues that came up a few days ago that were close to my heart, so I hope people don't mind if I bring them back into discussion.

psychoslice wrote;
You are right to a certain degree, but I found that the ones who usually get upset are the ones who don't like their beliefs questioned, they hold on to them so dearly, myself I don't care if one gets upset over beliefs, it may be what is needed.

I liked what you said here Psych. So much of being accepted in churches depends on "not rocking the boat" and I think that is how the corruption gets in. A lot of people don't really go to church because they are interested in finding the "Truth" (although they may start out that way), they go to church for other reasons, like to be respecatable, finding a partner, to get a job, to feel superior, etc, so they but up with all the bull**** or become part of it because of their personal agendas.

Seawolf wrote:
It's extremely arrogant, and when people point that out, the fundamentalist will always turn it back on them, saying that they're 'running from the Truth'. Because he has the Truth, he's not being arrogant or a bigot, he's the martyr. Any resistance is never because of something he's doing wrong, it's always the 'blindness' of the non-believers who haven't experienced the Truth. They often talk about love, yet can't see how they're treating others. That's the whole point, it hurts real people. The pinnacle is genocide when the environment and situation allows for it.

Yes, I think arrogance is a fairly good indicator that a person has stopped searching for truth. IMHO (LOL), you need a pretty healthy dose of doubt about your opinions, assumptions, beliefs, conclusions or whatever in order to get closer to finding the truth (That's what they call "the scientific process", I think).
One of the (many) things that really annoys me about some Christians is their insistance that they are saved and everyone else is lost. Instead of acknowleging that the spiritual journey is a process and that everything is in flux.
I think saying that you are "saved" is also a useful excuse for them to justify their shortcomings and stagnate spiritually.
According to a large segment of Christianity a "saved" person's sins are forgiven (past, present and future), but if you are not "saved" then you will fry no matter how good you are. Which just doesn't make sense to me. Surely the creator of the universe is smarter than that! If justice is to be served, shouldn't the punishment fit the crime?
No, I don't think God would be so dumb as to condemn a good person and pardon a bad person on the basis of their belief systems. He will just look at what they have done!

Originally Posted by Newfreedom9

It is amazing how many scriptures you can't really understand until you look at them outside of religion. And how people are so convinced they know the right "way" and yet, like you said their faces are blank, they're not happy, their lives are falling apart, etc.

Christians have had 2000 years to practice making all kinds of excuses and to twist the scriptures to say what they clearly do not say. But if you step out of the Christian religion and just go an read what Jesus taught, then things actually start to make sense. It's like the leaders in the Church are trained to mystify the bible or something. Maybe they do it so that the congregation will need them to "explain" it to them?
It seems impossible that Jesus could say "love your enemies", and then what we hear in the churches is "kill your enemies", but that is exactly what is happening, with so many issues. Wealth, Titles, praying out loud. The list goes on!
Jesus said something about children being able to see the Kingdom of Heaven and I think it's true. Kids see things without any preconceptions, like msmcgee was saying about her sister's baby. She did not need to have any experience to see that her mother's religion was not making Mama happy.

Originally Posted by Seawolf

Poison is everywhere, not just in fundamentalist Christianity. The hard part for me is accepting responsibility for the poison I let into my life instead of blaming others. I was angry as hell too for the whole mess I got into, and I'm still working on the guilt for it. But accepting responsibility lets me forgive myself and move on to a better life.

I really respect you for not getting bitter Seawolf. I think it's a sign of great integrity. It's so easy to want to blame others for the choices we make, when the truth is we chose to walk that path, nobody forced us.
Somebody once said to me that bitterness is like a poison that destroys you from the inside out. Unless you deal with it, it will do more harm to you than the person/experience you are bitter about.

[psychoslice]

Originally Posted by hasbean

Christians have had 2000 years to practice making all kinds of excuses and to twist the scriptures to say what they clearly do not say. But if you step out of the Christian religion and just go an read what Jesus taught, then things actually start to make sense. It's like the leaders in the Church are trained to mystify the bible or something. Maybe they do it so that the congregation will need them to "explain" it to them?
It seems impossible that Jesus could say "love your enemies", and then what we hear in the churches is "kill your enemies", but that is exactly what is happening, with so many issues. Wealth, Titles, praying out loud. The list goes on!
Jesus said something about children being able to see the Kingdom of Heaven and I think it's true. Kids see things without any preconceptions, like msmcgee was saying about her sister's baby. She did not need to have any experience to see that her mother's religion was not making Mama happy.

I agree, but the sad truth is that most kids are indoctrinated by their parents, the have no hope after that.

Originally Posted by Newfreedom9

I can't say I'm surprised they stuck by the pastor. That's another thing that seems common in churches and religion, is to almost have a god like respect for the pastor. I've heard so many people say, just ask the pastor this, my pastor said that. It's all such nonsense seeing as he's a man just like anyone else. So many are placed on pedestals anyway though, no matter how much their true colors shine through. If people followed scripture instead of blindly following pastors, Christianity would be a whole nother religion!

Absolutely Newfreedom9! I couldn't agree more! I think a lot of pastors set about to be lifted up. As long as they keep telling people what they want to hear they will be ensured of royal treatment. But imagine what would happen to them if they told the congregation to give their money to the poor!

Originally Posted by Newfreedom9

I thought God was more happy with me when I obeyed every man made rule perfectly. Seems a bit silly now. I was really more like a good little sheep being led to the slaughter. I felt guilty about things no one should ever feel guilty about. That's one of the things I love most, is being free from guilt and shame, instead of having it heaped on me.

That is exactly the problem. Man made rules! That kind of religion is designed to oppress you and make you feel guilty, but that's man's doing. I don't think that was the original idea.

Karl Marx put it quite well, when he said that...

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower".

Marx was right about religion being used as a tool to keep the masses a passive workforce, which I think is still happening in a lot of ways. Society and religion conspire together to keep people from questioning what is being done to the people and the planet. But I think he was wrong dismiss spiritual beliefs and I think he was misguided to think that imposing a system on people was going to change the people. What ended up happening was that one unjust corrupt system was replaced by another.
To change the world, you have to change the people first (IMHO)! And that will only happen when people choose to change.

Originally Posted by msmcgee

The saddest and most hurtful thing was being told that I was never saved to begin with and obviously never really gave my life to Christ. That was really painful, because the lengths I went to and the pain and stress I inflicted on myself in order to be Christlike was almost unspeakable. Every day was a battle to be Christlike, at least how I was taught and thought was Christlike. So to be told you were never really saved and never really devoted to Christ hurt. A lot.

The sick thing about this is that this is what the leaders are actually being taught to say to people. How else can you account for it being said to people by so many different churches in different places? Like I said people have had a long time to dream up all these clever little doctrines.
Have you heard the one that says "if you're sick it's because you lack faith", and "if you don't get healed it's because you doubted"? And of course, "if you get healed it's because I prayed for you!". These kind of mind games (like "if you leave you were never saved"), can really mess people up! It's sad, but noone challanges it because they don't want to be on the receiving end.

Originally Posted by msmcgee

Thanks, but I'm no hero. I'm just me. Believe me I still have my own problems. I agree though, the pastor worship is just crazy. Saw it time and time again. It isn't until something big enough to involve the law happens that people wake up and realize just how bad these people really are, and even then sometimes they don't. And yes, money and greed really are the root of all evil. I won't disagree that the Bible has some words of wisdom, lol. It's taking all of it literally that's the problem with it. That and picking and choosing what one feels is important.

Talking about picking and choosing bits of the bible. Here is one of my favourite parts!

Jesus said, "No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."
Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. Luke 16:13-14

Notice the Pharasees reaction! I think they were the pastors of Jesus day! But seriously, that is the same choice we all face on our spiritual journeys. Do we compromise in order to get physical comforts (mammon) or do we serve a higher "master"?

Originally Posted by Seawolf

Same thing happened to me. I was crushed when the leaders of the church sat me down in a room and told me I had never had real faith in Jesus. Even more hurtful was them saying the only reason I have doubts is because I was 'hurt by the church'. That seems to be the excuse they give for anyone who starts questioning. It's extremely offensive to the person who is beginning to think for themselves. It makes you feel like a total peice of ****. I was so sick of being dehumanized I had to totally get away from all of it.

I think the most effective lies are ones that are laced with bits of truth. Because we think we are among friends and people who love us, we see the specks of truth in the chalice and ignore the rest of the poison.

The truth is, most people get "hurt by the church" because the church is not following the principles it is supposed to be founded on. The whole reason it hurts so much is because we DID have real faith in Jesus, and we felt betrayed when we found out that they were just playing games!

Originally Posted by psychoslice

I agree, but the sad truth is that most kids are indoctrinated by their parents, the have no hope after that.

I don't know that they have no hope! I imagine it may make things harder for them, but that may be part of their journey too. Like Msmcgee, said she used to be timid and shy, but her experiences made her a stronger, more outspoken person.
I believe everyone has a choice somewhere along the line. We may not be able to choose what happens to us, but we do have a choice in how we respond to it.

Peace. Beans

[psychoslice]

Originally Posted by hasbean

I don't know that they have no hope! I imagine it may make things harder for them, but that may be part of their journey too. Like Msmcgee, said she used to be timid and shy, but her experiences made her a stronger, more outspoken person.
I believe everyone has a choice somewhere along the line. We may not be able to choose what happens to us, but we do have a choice in how we respond to it.

Peace. Beans

And that is true also, and i hope that many will start to use their brains and make those right choices.