Want to become a Christian but...

[ThatMan]

@Persnickety The most easy way to get an idea of the supernatural is to look at quantum mechanics, just watch some documentaries about it and you will be totally amazed so amazed that you will start to see that the very fabric of reality is not what it seems to be.

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by ThatMan

@Persnickety The most easy way to get an idea of the supernatural is to look at quantum mechanics, just watch some documentaries about it and you will be totally amazed so amazed that you will start to see that the very fabric of reality is not what it seems to be.

yes indeedy TM. This is true for the quantum world, its also the same for the larger end of physics in relativity, and the same in maths

i'm no maths head but i learned a bit about imaginary numbers and won't look at them the same way again. there are whole other numbers out there we can't normally comprehend but have discovered exist and the basis of fractals

i recon this is a universal principal that the deeper you go into something the more there is to find. so it must be true for spirituality, which takes away the formal, rigid understanding of it and makes it more awesome

i even feel you can go into some silly pastime like fishing or golf and see the same patterns emerge if you go far enough into it so they're not non-spiritual, nothing really is.

all this begins to create a new foundation of understanding that doesn't oppose 'faith' but makes faith stronger i recon but it might mean making room for some stuff and altering other stuff as things change around in consciousness. life seems more and more amazing. the profound questions don't go away, at least not for me! they are still there i refuse to know something unless i really am sure that seems the safest route to me any way

[Persnickety]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Can you tell us why you have an issue with things unseen?
Thanks.

This is a tough question to answer. The reason is because the supernatural as a category is so vague. I've tried to answer this in a few different ways and none of them seem to quite get at the problem.

I think it boils down to this. I have no problem believing in things I can't see. There are countless things I can't see that I believe are none the less there. The thing about the supernatural is its inherent subjectivity. It seems to me impossible to know whether God actually exists or whether I'm just imagining it. Believing that Jesus is the son of God and rose from the dead is so unbelievable, so unlikely, so improbable, so evidentially unproven that I'm not sure how to bridge that gap. The kind of faith required seems more than is possible.

I want to believe, I really do, but the weight of improbability is just far greater than any amount of faith I can imagine having.

[theophilus]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

Grace is beautiful concept no doubt about that!
I don't like 'unmerited favour' its like giving someone a present then telling them they don't deserve it.
it actually makes no sense and the best they could come up with is a bone dry definition like that, well... i'd worry that might annoy God, he goes to great lengths to save people and then they do something like that!

What is wrong with calling grace unmerited favor? That is exactly what it is. If we deserved it we wouldn't need it. The closest analogy I can think of would be a criminal on death row awaiting execution. There is no question that he is guilty of the crime for which he is being executed. Then the governor gives him a pardon and he is set free. He has done nothing to deserve being pardoned. The governor has shown grace to him.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Persnickety

I think it boils down to this.
I have no problem believing in things I can't see. There are countless things I can't see that I believe are none the less there.
The thing about the supernatural is its inherent subjectivity.

It seems to me impossible to know whether God actually exists or
whether I'm just imagining it.
Believing that Jesus is the son of God and rose from the dead is so unbelievable, so unlikely, so improbable,
so evidentially unproven that I'm not sure how to bridge that gap.
The kind of faith required seems more than is possible.

I want to believe, I really do, but the weight of improbability is just far greater than any amount of faith I can imagine having.

Good answer, thank you!
Imagining something and directly experiencing something - up-close and personal - intimately are so diff, right?

I really think and say a lot, "Seeing is believing."

Most people I find have this 'love' and faith in, say, the 'puppy in the photo' -they are about to get from out of state -
the fantasy of the puppy, the thoughts of what that puppy might bring into their lives, what the breeder wrote about the playful, darling puppy, etc.
But, they haven't even seen or felt or picked up the puppy, yet.
You don't really even know if the photo was fake!
Yet, people tell their friends, "I love this puppy already."
No, they're loving the feeling they have about their fantasy and hopes.

When you know the puppy personally - well, then, there you have it...
then you can comment on it.

If you would like to believe what others say and believe in -
then, sit...in stillness...ask to be shown inside what is what.
Have a little hope or desire, like a an open inquisitive child---wait.
Children don't use logic...they aren't trying to figure out what is improbable.

Could take a week, a month, a year of regular stillness time.
Most Christians don't even do this...ask them.
"Have you sat in stillness until God personally came to you, revealed Himself to you?"


However, if you don't know what is imagination and what is a real experience - I don't know if I could help any further.
PS - start smaller - you don't have to jump right into believing a man
rose from the dead or walked in water ---yet.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by ThatMan

@Persnickety The most easy way to get an idea of the supernatural is to look at quantum mechanics,
just watch some documentaries about it and you will be totally amazed so amazed that you will start to see
that the very fabric of reality is not what it seems to be.

Well, you got THAT right!! As usual.

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by theophilus

What is wrong with calling grace unmerited favor? That is exactly what it is. If we deserved it we wouldn't need it. The closest analogy I can think of would be a criminal on death row awaiting execution. There is no question that he is guilty of the crime for which he is being executed. Then the governor gives him a pardon and he is set free. He has done nothing to deserve being pardoned. The governor has shown grace to him.

i think its because i see Grace as a living thing not an 'act' on God's part so much but connected with the presence of God that sanctifies
So the 'unmerited favour' seems to put all the emphasis on the 'unmerited' part and then that's it, so its sort of placing all the emphasis on certain theology rather than all the focus on Grace itself
Or to put another way, is there Grace in the definition 'unmerited favour'?
I don't feel there is Grace in the definition, its a dry theological term, so the term doesn't contain what its supposed to define is how i feel about it like a dictionary definition is precise but still wrong sometimes.

Originally Posted by davidmartin

Grace is beautiful concept no doubt about that!
I don't like 'unmerited favour' its like giving someone a present then telling them they don't deserve it.
it actually makes no sense and the best they could come up with is a bone dry definition like that, well... i'd worry that might annoy God, he goes to great lengths to save people and then they do something like that!

Well, I suppose I see what you mean, it does sound a bit dry for a concept such as grace. I prefer to see it as the eternal unchanging unconditional love of God.
Although we may look upon another and say "they don't deserve it", it would seem that God sees something that is beyond our limited vision and says, "Yes they do, always have and always will."

Originally Posted by Molearner

ketzer,

I agree with everything you said with one exception. And that is your first sentence. IMO 'persnickety' has connotations of being judgmental and less than open-minded. If this is true in any way it will have a way of drawing one's attention to the shortcomings of Christianity rather than its attributes. I particularly liked your advice to concentrate and contemplate the teachings of Jesus. That is the heart and soul of genuine Christianity and manmade dogmas are, in a way, the antithesis of Christianity. Dogmas and doctrine are the acceptance of the deliberations of someone other than one's self. And for truth to be truth it must be your one personal truth. This involves trusting your own intuition and believing that intuition itself is a grace of God.

In regards to the church experience itself one must remember that any church is well populated with sinners and hypocrites. My advice to the poster is to look for those in the church that radiate love, forgiveness and understanding. And to silently forgive those that do not demonstrate those characteristics......they still have a long way to go to enter the narrow gate and you should not judge your own progress by comparing it to others.

.....

Yes, I see that it can have that connotation. I was thinking more of the other definition, being fussy or particular about the small details. Dogma's often go to great lengths to lay out all of the details. Sometimes, it's as if they need to have an explanation for every question that the mystery of life and God may inspire, lest the believer go elsewhere for answers and they lose a sheep from the flock. I do believe it is good to be at least somewhat persnickety about those answers. The problem of having an answer, is that if it satisfies, it encourages me to stop wondering and looking at the mystery itself. Not all false idols are made of gold, sometimes our own beliefs can be a form of idolatry. I can have my ideas about God, but I need to keep in mind that God does not fit into any ideology that fits into the human mind.

That said, your caution is a good one. If one is always and only a critic, they never really get to take in the art as a whole, and can never appreciate the gestalt that may emerge. Instead all they experience is their own judgments.

It's a dilemma I suppose. How to be critical enough that we don't get sucked into someones else's self serving pontificating, yet not so critical that we fail to see the beauty that may emerge from what otherwise might seem like a bunch of random shapes in a piece of modern art.

We shall call it "Persnickety dilemma". There, now it has a name.


Definition of persnickety
1a: fussy about small details : FASTIDIOUS
a persnickety teacher
b: having the characteristics of a snob
2: requiring great precision
a persnickety job

pon·tif·i·cate
verb gerund or present participle: pontificating
/pänˈtifiˌkāt/
1. express one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic.
"he was pontificating about art and history"
2. (in the Roman Catholic Church) officiate as bishop, especially at Mass.

As for church, maybe it is just me, but I wonder if Jesus might have a tendency to skip the mass but show up at the pot luck afterwards. IDK, but if I have felt his presence, it seems it is more so at the latter than at the former. Even more so at the Friday fish fry fundraisers, they never seem to run out of fish or rolls, no matter how many show up.

[jojo50]

Originally Posted by Persnickety

Long story cut very short, I feel I need a higher power in my life, Christianity seems a good bet for a number of reasons but I'm struggling to mentally buy into the supernatural. I'm not convinced by any of the apologetic arguments for God and I haven't had an identifiable, subjective experience of God. How do I do this?

first, believing comes by faith, NOT sight ,(2Cor. 5:7). still MANY do need to see in order to believe. you said you felt the need for an Higher Power. there's something there, or you wouldn't feel this way. MANY believe in God because they actually witness seeing what they believed to be a dead person. especially if it looked like a relative. it's a journey you have to travel, we can give you all type of human advice. but at the end, it's you who have to find that place of belief.

Jesus said basically if you ask, you will get it. if you're seeking, you'll find it. and if you knock, it'll be opened ,(Matt. 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you). MANY took this as him speaking on material things, he wasn't! Jesus was referring to things of a Spiritual nature. ask for knowledge and understanding of this invisible God. if we choose NOT to then we will never get to know him...

(Pro. 1:28-31 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD. They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices).

pray for knowledge of this High Being, and he will show you. understand, there are good Beings, and wicked ones, both of the Spirit world. the wicked ones, do NOT want any of us to believe in God ,(2Cor. 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them). demons are an adversary to God. if they can get us to NOT believe in God, it's all good to them.

satan, he's a MASTER of trickery ,(Ephe. 6:11 Put on the whole Armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil). this is why God wants us to know him. so that we won't be fooled ,(2Cor. 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices). so just pray with an sincere heart, even if you don't really believe, for understanding. this God who has a Name he allowed us to use ,(Jehovah-English) Yahweh -Hebrew ,(Exo. 6:3 and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them), will answer. peace