The Divine Paradox

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Anything which can be described, subscribed to, taken to have any meaning or value can only occur after the fact, or as a poor and totally insufficient allusion TO the fact!

Is your meaning the witness being The One can never be its own object? My impression is this is the reason for existence as we experience it, else The One would be in a very uninteresting state of being. It's the purpose for a seeming duality embedded within the underlying foundation of non-duality.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I understand that God is something greater than what I am, and what I am is only a small PART of God...in my heart, like a Divine Spark...and this isn't something which my brain understands, it is something that only my heart does, so any logic to the contrary just "does not compute" because my heart is stuck in Duality...in the whole relationship between "Shivani" and "Shiva" and my brain has absolutely NO say in it at all....so people can expound Non Duality to me until all the sacred cows come home and my heart will say "don't listen to that rubbish...".

My understanding or impression or heartfelt feeling is that small part of God deep down at our core of being is the superposition of God upon us. It's the Atman and is also Brahman which we can never intellectualize, hard as we try. There is no relationship between them because they are one in the same, however the witness simply cannot be its own object to conceptualize, hence the seeming paradox.

I've never directly experienced becoming one with non-duality but I know or feel at the deepest core of being I Am that awareness and not this accumulation of organic matter and life experience. I'm also certain this reply is a very poor attempt at trying to verbalize it, but it is something I feel at the core without doubt and also sense just about everywhere if that makes sense.

EDIT: I've never directly experienced becoming one with non-duality except if one considers those very deep meditative states where mind and time (almost?) totally drop away. Perfect stillness and an experience of simply being and nothing more? Nothing otherworldly or paranormal, no flash of total understanding, no experience of being embraced by The Light and unconditional love. Just being without subjectivity. That's about as close as I come.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Is your meaning the witness being The One can never be its own object? My impression is this is the reason for existence as we experience it, else The One would be in a very uninteresting state of being. It's the purpose for a seeming duality embedded within the underlying foundation of non-duality.



My understanding or impression or heartfelt feeling is that small part of God deep down at our core of being is the superposition of God upon us. It's the Atman and is also Brahman which we can never intellectualize, hard as we try. There is no relationship between them because they are one in the same, however the witness simply cannot be its own object to conceptualize, hence the seeming paradox.

I've never directly experienced becoming one with non-duality but I know or feel at the deepest core of being I Am that awareness and not this accumulation of organic matter and life experience. I'm also certain this reply is a very poor attempt at trying to verbalize it, but it is something I feel at the core without doubt and also sense just about everywhere if that makes sense.

EDIT: I've never directly experienced becoming one with non-duality except if one considers those very deep meditative states where mind and time (almost?) totally drop away. Perfect stillness and an experience of simply being and nothing more? Nothing otherworldly or paranormal, no flash of total understanding, no experience of being embraced by The Light and unconditional love. Just being without subjectivity. That's about as close as I come.

What is it that I mean?

In regards to Atman and Brahman....

From whence does the distinction arise between the Jivatman and the Paramatman to make them distinguishable, by inference from the concept of Atman?

If the Embodied Soul is no different from the Oversoul, from whence also arises the "I AM" in Dualistic reference to "Everything IS" so that there is no "I", there is just Existence Absolute?

In regards to that, if Brahman is both the effulgence and fullness of it's own manifestation (Vimarsha) of Non Dual Consciousness, as per the preface to the Isha Upanishad states:

https://greenmesg.org/stotras/vedas/...purnamidam.php

Why do the Vedas make the Dualistic division between Brahman and PARA Brahman? (Saguna and Nirguna components) thus dividing Non Duality even more?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para_Brahman

Do you understand this? because I do not.

Lord Shiva got the same treatment...just when something is taken to the limit of human conceptualization...oh wait, there's more! Like Shiva vs Sadashiva or Ishwara vs Parameshwara:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-di...-sakshat-shiva

Do you understand this? Because I do not.

Then I wonder if Shiva could exist without Shakti or if Shakti could exist without Shiva...could Non Duality even exist without Duality or vice versa?

And why is it that the founder of Advaita Vedanta, Adi Shankaracharya in his whole Non-Dual lectures and philosophy wrote works that were essentially the quintessence of Dualist thought like the Soundarya Lahari or wrote stuff like this stotram:

http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Shiva_A...mapana_Stotram

When Adi Shankaracharya also wrote Atma (Nirvana) Shatakam:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atma_Shatkam

Now, if Adi Shankaracharya is not the mind, body, intellect nor senses because he IS Shiva.. veritably Brahman itself, just who or what was he asking forgiveness from in his first Stotram (which was written years after the second one)?

I don't understand this...do you?

When people pray to God (as I do) why don't they just cut to the chase and pray directly to themselves if they ARE that? Why associate with anything that has a label at ALL? Why do people still eat? Surely they would be able to sustain themselves from within if they ARE God, N'est pas?

Also, why did the greatest Advaitin of the last century, Ramana Maharishi move to Arunachala (instead of staying where he was) and worship Lord Shiva in the form of a mountain, at the place where the Saguna form of Brahman transformed into the Nirguna form of Brahman called a Jyotir Lingam yet remained WITH a form (albeit an infinite one) to put an end to the quarrel between Lord Brahma and Lord Vishnu about who was the greatest God out there by getting them to find where the effulgence of Brahman began and ended...and all from atop a mountain that Ramana Maharishi worshiped, even after his realization that he IS that...so then, what was worshiping what?

I don't understand that...do you?

It is for all the above reasons why I don't grok Non Duality...why I don't feel bad about loving and worshiping a Hindu Deity as being separate FROM myself...it is just that everyone else has a problem with it because I am not being "Non Dual"...I am being "Dualistic" and they see that as a huge sin, but I cannot, for the life of me, understand what is the problem with obtaining Samadhi through Duality and not through Non Duality as everyone else who is NOT me believes I should be doing...but it is not who I am, nor is it me "being myself" when what I AM is a Dualist...pure and simple.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I don't understand that...do you?

Intellectually not in the least and to each instance of the question posed. But on a very deep level it has a very organic feeling of Truth and from the heart. Well, at least it did starting several weeks back. Prior to that I could only attempt to intellectualize it as best I could, which wasn't at all impressive or satisfying, though judging from your posts you have far greater knowledge about this than I.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

It is for all the above reasons why I don't grok non Duality...why I don't feel bad about loving and worshiping a Hindu Deity as being separate FROM myself...it is just that everyone ELSE has a problem with it because I am not being "Non Dual"...I am being "Dualistic" and they see that as a huge sin, but I cannot, for the life of me understand what is the problem with obtaining Omaha through Duality and not Non Duality as everyone else who is NOT me believes I should be doing...but it is not who I am, nor is me "being myself" when what I AM is a Dualist...pure and simple.

Couple of things starting with a Bruce Lee quote.

"Research your own experience; absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own."

My take is be yourself, trust yourself and be open. Acknowledge truth where you find it and only if it makes sense to you, not someone else.

I'll dig through my YT playlists because I have a bunch of lectures by Swami Sarvapriyananda saved, and one of them speaks to worshiping in a dualistic fashion whilst subscribing to a non-dualistic reality.

My impression is we have to follow our hearts and allow others the space to follow theirs because in the end it's all the same.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Intellectually not in the least and to each instance of the question posed. But on a very deep level it has a very organic feeling of Truth and from the heart. Well, at least it did starting several weeks back. Prior to that I could only attempt to intellectualize it as best I could, which wasn't at all impressive or satisfying, though judging from your posts you have far greater knowledge about this than I.



Couple of things starting with a Bruce Lee quote.

"Research your own experience; absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own."

My take is be yourself, trust yourself and be open. Acknowledge truth where you find it and only if it makes sense to you, not someone else.

I'll dig through my YT playlists because I have a bunch of lectures by Swami Sarvapriyananda saved, and one of them speaks to worshiping in a dualistic fashion whilst subscribing to a non-dualistic reality.

My impression is we have to follow our hearts and allow others the space to follow theirs because in the end it's all the same.

Exactly...and my heart tells me that I am not an Advaitin, I am a Shiva Bhakta.

I found and watched that lecture by Swami Sarvapriyananda (I have watched a few of his videos before and found them to be informative and enjoyable).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dk4EIe-qyk

I still don't have "closure" on the matter.

"I am Brahman" = Absolute Fact
"Shiva is Brahman" = Absolute Fact
"I am/not Shiva" = Relative Fact.

So, back to square one..

This interview with Stephen Wolinski from the Science and Non Duality conference makes more sense to me personally...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bkIKXgiKvCM

Yeah, I have had the experience of the merging of my individual consciousness into Non Dual awareness...funny how I still fall at the feet of the Divine even after it...and I am at a loss to understand why... perhaps I just wasn't meant to and I should drop it.

Thanks for your advice and your kind thoughts and words.."Be water, my friend" - Bruce Lee

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Exactly...and my heart tells me that I am not an Advaitin, I am a Shiva Bhakta.

I found and watched that lecture by Swami Sarvapriyananda (I have watched a few of his videos before and found them to be informative and enjoyable).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dk4EIe-qyk

I still don't have "closure" on the matter.

"I am Brahman" = Absolute Fact
"Shiva is Brahman" = Absolute Fact
"I am/not Shiva" = Relative Fact.

So, back to square one..

This interview with Stephen Wolinski from the Science and Non Duality conference makes more sense to me personally...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bkIKXgiKvCM

Yeah, I have had the experience of the merging of my individual consciousness into Non Dual awareness...funny how I still fall at the feet of the Divine even after it...and I am at a loss to understand why... perhaps I just wasn't meant to and I should drop it.

Thanks for your advice and your kind thoughts and words.."Be water, my friend" - Bruce Lee

I see we have similar tastes or maybe predispositions? I find the same qualities in his talks and also like the varied and broad disciplines, personalities and subject matter embodied at SAND conferences. I'll check out the Stephen Wolinski video later and there's a chance I might have already watched it, but thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I can't yet post links, but here are the titles that can be found on YouTube.

"Does Advaita Vedanta Accept God Swami Sarvapriyananda"

And specifically this one though the audio quality is poor but understandable.

"Swami Vivekananda's Practical Vedanta by Swami Sarvapriyananda"

[Unseeking Seeker]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

What is it that I mean?

In regards to Atman and Brahman....

From whence does the distinction arise between the Jivatman and the Paramatman to make them distinguishable, by inference from the concept of Atman?

If the Embodied Soul is no different from the Oversoul, from whence also arises the "I AM" in Dualistic reference to "Everything IS" so that there is no "I", there is just Existence Absolute?

In regards to that, if Brahman is both the effulgence and fullness of it's own manifestation (Vimarsha) of Non Dual Consciousness, as per the preface to the Isha Upanishad states:

https://greenmesg.org/stotras/vedas/...purnamidam.php

Why do the Vedas make the Dualistic division between Brahman and PARA Brahman? (Saguna and Nirguna components) thus dividing Non Duality even more?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para_Brahman

Do you understand this? because I do not.

Lord Shiva got the same treatment...just when something is taken to the limit of human conceptualization...oh wait, there's more! Like Shiva vs Sadashiva or Ishwara vs Parameshwara:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-di...-sakshat-shiva

Do you understand this? Because I do not.

Then I wonder if Shiva could exist without Shakti or if Shakti could exist without Shiva...could Non Duality even exist without Duality or vice versa?

And why is it that the founder of Advaita Vedanta, Adi Shankaracharya in his whole Non-Dual lectures and philosophy wrote works that were essentially the quintessence of Dualist thought like the Soundarya Lahari or wrote stuff like this stotram:

http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Shiva_A...mapana_Stotram

When Adi Shankaracharya also wrote Atma (Nirvana) Shatakam:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atma_Shatkam

Now, if Adi Shankaracharya is not the mind, body, intellect nor senses because he IS Shiva.. veritably Brahman itself, just who or what was he asking forgiveness from in his first Stotram (which was written years after the second one)?

I don't understand this...do you?

When people pray to God (as I do) why don't they just cut to the chase and pray directly to themselves if they ARE that? Why associate with anything that has a label at ALL? Why do people still eat? Surely they would be able to sustain themselves from within if they ARE God, N'est pas?

Also, why did the greatest Advaitin of the last century, Ramana Maharishi move to Arunachala (instead of staying where he was) and worship Lord Shiva in the form of a mountain, at the place where the Saguna form of Brahman transformed into the Nirguna form of Brahman called a Jyotir Lingam yet remained WITH a form (albeit an infinite one) to put an end to the quarrel between Lord Brahma and Lord Vishnu about who was the greatest God out there by getting them to find where the effulgence of Brahman began and ended...and all from atop a mountain that Ramana Maharishi worshiped, even after his realization that he IS that...so then, what was worshiping what?

I don't understand that...do you?

It is for all the above reasons why I don't grok Non Duality...why I don't feel bad about loving and worshiping a Hindu Deity as being separate FROM myself...it is just that everyone else has a problem with it because I am not being "Non Dual"...I am being "Dualistic" and they see that as a huge sin, but I cannot, for the life of me, understand what is the problem with obtaining Samadhi through Duality and not through Non Duality as everyone else who is NOT me believes I should be doing...but it is not who I am, nor is it me "being myself" when what I AM is a Dualist...pure and simple.

***

Brilliant, as always!

Thanks for the insights ... although, as you say and as we feel and experience, the paradox remains. So be it.

Edit footnote: in as of interactions with Shivji by those so blessed and as narrated to me by them first hand, He Himself also affirms that He is not the Param Barahm although the trinity being in equivalence (?) to the supreme Creator

***

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

***

Brilliant, as always!

Thanks for the insights ... although, as you say and as we feel and experience, the paradox remains. So be it.

Edit footnote: in as of interactions with Shivji by those so blessed and as narrated to me by them first hand, He Himself also affirms that He is not the Param Barahm although the trinity being in equivalence (?) to the supreme Creator

***

Thank you too.

Response to footnote:

Even among my tribe and ancestors who follow Agama Hindu Dharma, the lineage is a Non-Dual, Tantric one, with homage paid to the celestial Trimurti or the Trinity of creation, preservation and transmutation or G.O.D. (Generator, Operator, Destroyer).

This always left me wondering why an omnipotent and omnipresent being would feel the need to divide itself by three...let alone 33 crore of Hindu Gods... Besides which, Lord Shiva took a special interest in me personally, so I adopted the motto of the Highlander Immortals: "In the end, there can be only One.." where TRUE Non-Duality would posit: "in the end, there just is not two" and Buddhism would say "in the end, there is nothing" and Linkin Park would say "in the end, nothing really matters" (Metallica also said this).

Some Hindus refined (redefined) the Trimurti into one being and gave it the name of Dattatreya or Dattaswami.

I took one look at the tines on Lord Shiva's Trishula...the number of eyes He had, the number of vibhuti lines on His forehead and saw Lord Shiva as the embodiment of the "three-in-one" God within His entire presentation...yet I realised He was much more than what He appeared to be...much, MUCH more than I would ever be able to understand...and I was thus introduced to Lord Shiva this way and became a Shaivite.

So, there is that aspect...but we also have another name..as part of my traditional heritage..

Acintya Sanghyang Widhi Wasa...we just call Him "Widhi" for short..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acintya

For me, that always has been synonymous with Shiva..

Enough of that. LOL

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

This interview with Stephen Wolinski from the Science and Non Duality conference makes more sense to me personally...

I watched it and the section titled "What are the approaches to nonduality" reminded me of a theme that runs through Sadhguru's talks: Neti neti.

I like to look at this from different perspectives: science, philosophy, spirituality, mysticism and even the skeptics point of view. People like Dennett, Harris, Dawkins, Shermer, etc... and I get the sense the same applies to you.

Have you ever watched John Hagelin's Stanford lecture titled "Consciousness, a Quantum Physics Perspective"?

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I watched it and the section titled "What are the approaches to nonduality" reminded me of a theme that runs through Sadhguru's talks: Neti neti.

I like to look at this from different perspectives: science, philosophy, spirituality, mysticism and even the skeptics point of view. People like Dennett, Harris, Dawkins, Shermer, etc... and I get the sense the same applies to you.

Have you ever watched John Hagelin's Stanford lecture titled "Consciousness, a Quantum Physics Perspective"?

Thanks for watching the interview.

Yes, I often watch skeptical arguments by Richard Dawkins, Dan Harris, Carl Sagan, Arthur C Clarke, James Randi et al, just to see if the skeptical position is any more or less "plausible" than the position that actual "believers" hold... sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't and often, speculative theory gets passed off as "scientific fact" while even some of the old stalwarts of scientific rationalism would consider Neurology to still be a "pseudoscience"...I like a good laugh.

I think I have seen every Sadhguru lecture on YouTube and at least three times each...Sadhguru really isn't an Advaitin though, judging by the huge argument he had with Sri Sri Ravi Shankar over the form of Lord Shiva as Aadi Yogi, when Sri Sri insisted that Shiva had absolutely NO form whatsoever...Sri Sri said "neti neti" and Sadhguru questioned his motives for saying so...now, where IS that video?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mag3WouiXOU

That is one of a few of them...

The purists would say that God would never take the form of a human being, but that is ALSO limiting God in accordance with what a human being only thinks/believes that God would not do.

What we have, is a world where everybody's beliefs ARE real but ONLY to them and nobody else!...in other words, MAYA.

We see lies and delusions being accepted as factual every day in this "post truth era", because everyone perceives reality differently and so nobody can say "you are wrong" like they could just 50 years ago and have many others agree with them...now, it is "every belief for itself" and if someone wants to believe that the Earth is flat, for them, it IS flat and for those who don't believe it is, then it is not...and such people who believe it is, will see scientists and skeptics as "haters" and "brainwashers" then go and quote something by David Icke.

I have never watched anything by John Hagelin because I was pretty much too busy watching Nassim Haramein instead.. but I will explore videos by John Hagelin upon your recommendation and get back to you. Thanks again.

[Shivani Devi]

Here is something for all the Quantum Consciousness nerds like yours truly..

Confirmation of Quantum Resonance in Brain Microtubules

https://resonance.is/confirmation-qu...omment-page-1/

They omitted the top down/bottom up scale of eukaryotic resonance in that model, covered by Donald Hoffman at the SAND conference..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lSrzlkfA0jk

However, let me see if I can find something about Advaita and God..

Here we go..

The Importance of Bhakti - Swami Sarvapriyananda
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rAbug2MUQKs