Robert Monroe's take on the afterlife..

[wolfgaze]

Originally Posted by metal68

I just wish there was more objective evidence. I really believe people see the things that they do during these experiences but its still so highly likely that they are created by the brain. It cant be ruled out.

Metal... try to focus on accounts that yielded 'veridical information' - this is particularly with regards to Near-Death Experiences.... But there are also instances where individuals had OBE's (Outer Body Experiences), typically in conjunction with an NDE, and they were able to report on factual happenings (as confirmed by others) that their physical body could not have detected with their normal senses....

With regards to the NDE's, there are accounts of individuals learning information that was not known to them at the time but could later be confirmed/verified as being accurate... For example:

-Learning that someone else was recently deceased when this had not been made known to the person in question before the NDE

-Meeting specific deceased relatives that were not previously known to the individual, but later confirmed by surviving relatives after the NDE

There are other types of examples... But if you search for the term 'veridical' in conjunction with these topics, you should come upon some really intriguing accounts...

[metal68]

There is that really famous Tennis shoe incident but Ive seen that interpreted so many different ways as well. They've never managed to track Maria down have they??

[wolfgaze]

Originally Posted by metal68

There is that really famous Tennis shoe incident but Ive seen that interpreted so many different ways as well. They've never managed to track Maria down have they??

I know what you're referencing but I have never investigated the story any further...

There was a show on one of our U.S. TV channels called I Survived: Beyond And Back, and it featured the accounts/testimonies of individuals who had Near-Death Experiences... And this one young woman who was in a horrific car accident, was flown by helicopter to a hospital. While she was in the critical care unit or operating room being worked on, she found her Awarenress residing outside of her body (OBE), and she was able to observe a conversation that her relatives were having in the waiting room area... After she recovered she later repeated some of the details of that conversation to the participants, much to their disbelief...

In Pim van Lommel's book he briefly discussed 'Perimortem Experiences' and that's when another individual's death/passing is sensed by someone else, before that actual information was known. The person may come to them in a vivid dream to say goodbye, or there maybe some other form of spiritual experience or intuitive sensing/knowing - but nonetheless, information that could not have been known by any logical/conventional means is obtained and later verified to be accurate....

[metal68]

A lot of people are theorising super PSI as to explanations; I think they find it more palatable than the idea of Life After Death somehow.

My big worry is that the brain can do more than we think and once we fully understand the bloody nuisance that is the brain we will be able to fully rule out OBE/NDE etc

[wolfgaze]

Originally Posted by metal68

A lot of people are theorising super PSI as to explanations; I think they find it more palatable than the idea of Life After Death somehow.

Yes that's my impression as well... It's kinda strange in a way how they are willing to consider that our biological body can have experiences which completely fly in the face of the prior materialist thinking/understanding - but it's like they are not prepared to apply the same consideration to Consciousness itself (that it can experience something which totally defies the prior conventional thinking/understanding)

Originally Posted by metal68

My big worry is that the brain can do more than we think and once we fully understand the bloody nuisance that is the brain we will be able to fully rule out OBE/NDE etc

Have you ever wondered how a brain could create 'consciousness' from a combination of less complex and seemingly non-conscious biological parts/components? This is a loaded question because I do not feel like the brain produces consciousness... I have some quotes I will share shortly, bare with me:

"The gap between matter and consciousness is so radical and profound that it is hard to imagine that consciousness could simply emerge as an epiphenomenon out of the complexity of material processes in the central nervous system. We have ample clinical and experimental evidence showing deep correlations between the anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry of the brain, on the one hand, and conscious processes, on the other. However, none of these findings proves unequivocally that consciousness is actually generated by the brain. The origin of consciousness from matter is simply assumed as an obvious and self-evident fact based on the belief in the primacy of matter in the universe. In the entire history of science, nobody has ever offered a plausible explanation how consciousness could be generated by material processes, or even suggested a viable approach to the problem." ~ The Cosmic Game (Stanislav Grof)

"While these experiments clearly show that consciousness is closely connected with the neurophysiological and biochemical processes in the brain, they have very little bearing on the nature and origin of consciousness. There actually exists ample evidence suggesting exactly the opposite, namely that consciousness can under certain circumstances operate independently of its material substrate and can perform functions that reach far beyond the capacities of the brain. This is most clearly illustrated by the existence of out-of-body experiences (OOBEs). These can occur spontaneously, or in a variety of facilitating situations that include shamanic trance, psychedelic sessions, hypnosis, experiential psychotherapy, and particularly near-death situations." ~ The Cosmic Game (Stanislav Grof)

"In all these situations consciousness can separate from the body and maintain its sensory capacity, while moving freely to various close and remote locations. Of particular interest are “veridical OOBEs,” where independent verification proves the accuracy of perception of the environment under these circumstances. There are many other types of transpersonal phenomena that can mediate accurate information about various aspects of the universe that had not been previously received and recorded in the brain." ~ The Cosmic Game (Stanislav Grof)

"Western materialistic science has thus not been able to produce any convincing evidence that consciousness is a product of the neurophysiological processes in the brain. It has been able to maintain its present position only by resisting, censoring, and even ridiculing a vast body of observations indicating that consciousness can exist and function independently of the body and of the physical senses. This evidence comes from parapsychology, anthropology, LSD research, experiential psychotherapy, thanatology, and the study of spontaneously occurring nonordinary states of consciousness. All these disciplines have amassed impressive data demonstrating clearly that human consciousness is capable of doing many things that the brain (as understood by mainstream science) could not possibly do." ~ The Cosmic Game (Stanislav Grof)


"Many serious and trustworthy people have reported that, to their great surprise, they were able to experience an enhanced consciousness, independently of their body. On the basis of a few scientifically sound studies of NDE among cardiac arrest survivors, researchers have come to the conclusion that current scientific knowledge cannot offer an adequate explanation for the cause and content of a near-death experience. Some prospective, empirical studies provide conclusive evidence that it is possible to experience an enhanced and lucid consciousness during a cardiac arrest. We appear to have scientific proof that the cerebral cortex and brain stem are devoid of measurable activity during a cardiac arrest and that the clinical picture also reflects a loss of all brain function. Brain studies have shown that under normal circumstances a functioning, collaborative network of brain centers is a prerequisite for the experience of waking consciousness. This is absent during a cardiac arrest. Oxygen deficiency in itself provides no explanation because NDEs can be reported under circumstances that are not life-threatening, such as mortal fear or a serious depression. Our mind is capable of altering the anatomy and function of the brain (neuroplasticity). In many respects, both consciousness and brain function remain a huge mystery." ~ Consciousness Beyond Life (Pim van Lommel)

"The brain and the body merely function as a relay station receiving part of the overall consciousness and part of our memories in our waking consciousness in the form of measurable and constantly changing electromagnetic fields. In this view, these electromagnetic fields of the brain are not the cause but rather the effect or consequence of endless consciousness. According to this concept, our brain can be compared to a television set that receives information from electromagnetic fields and decodes it into sound and vision. Our brain can also be compared to a television camera, which converts sound and vision into electromagnetic waves, or encodes it. These electromagnetic waves contain the essence of all information for a TV program but are available to our senses only through a television camera and set. In this view, brain function can be seen as a transceiver; the brain does not produce but rather facilitates consciousness. And DMT or dimethyltryptamine, which is produced in the pineal gland, could play an important role in disturbing this process, as we saw earlier. Consciousness contains the seeds of all the information that is stored as wave functions in nonlocal space. It transmits information to the brain and via the brain receives information from the body and the senses. That consciousness affects both form and function of the brain and the body has been described in the discussion of neuroplasticity (“The mind can change the brain”)." ~ Consciousness Beyond Life (Pim van Lommel)

[CrystalSong]

Originally Posted by metal68

A lot of people are theorising super PSI as to explanations; I think they find it more palatable than the idea of Life After Death somehow.

My big worry is that the brain can do more than we think and once we fully understand the bloody nuisance that is the brain we will be able to fully rule out OBE/NDE etc

I really appreciate your doubting mind Metal68, its good to doubt, to really try and test things so that when you do arrive at a conclusion it's based on facts you yourself have experienced and not a lot of second hand opinions.
On this Path I have questioned a lot and even after things happened not believed them until I received even more information from random sources which was directly related. I used to go by the Rule of Three in fact.
I've given it up now though as I believe, I've seen and done way to much to not believe anymore and no longer have to prove or disprove it to myself anymore.

When you allow things to begin for you too, I hope you keep a part of your doubt and questioning mind in place - it makes it all that much more profound when the rational mind collapses in awe and finally 'gets" for the first time that it had failed somehow to see the Greater Part of Reality that was right here all along. It's really an incredible moment. Deeply Profound.

You'll have something rock solid then and you'll be resistant to all forms of people doubting and questioning and just have this broad happy grin inside knowing when and if it finally happens to them its just gonna flat blow their minds away And it'll feel really good to you to finally be at Peace with all these questions.

Seek and you shall find.
Knocking the door will be opened unto you.

You metal68 my friend are doing some serious knocking.... your answers are coming... it's how it works. Keep Seeking, peer under every proverbial rock and when your done look in that last landscape you've not investigated - the Inside of You. Oooooh Treasure there! Pure Gold! Buhyah!!

[desert rat]

Any one that wants see for his/her self could learn one of the many methods of astral projection . On the other hand there is a you tube video where James Randy talks about a o.b.e. of his and explanes that it is just a dream .

[Avadar]

Originally Posted by metal68

I just wish there was more objective evidence. I really believe people see the things that they do during these experiences but its still so highly likely that they are created by the brain. It cant be ruled out.

Near-death experience research, past-life regression research, and also inter-life regression research all offer illumination. There are NDE's that have occurred whereby the soul left the body temporarily and witnessed things that could not possibly have been known unless that consciousness did indeed depart the flesh.

[metal68]

Ive read a lot of the Michael Newton literature, however ive also read quite a lot of criticism of it too, saying that the accounts are merely products of the subconscious :-(

[Avadar]

Originally Posted by metal68

Ive read a lot of the Michael Newton literature, however ive also read quite a lot of criticism of it too, saying that the accounts are merely products of the subconscious :-(

Ah...yes...that old antiquated phrase, "products of the subconscious."

For the sake of all that which is good and true, for this forum and outside of it, let's set the record straight right here and right now.

The whole conscious, subconscious, and superconscious paradigm was invented by the sweetheart of psychologists and psychiatrists, Sigmund Freud. A man who didn't believe that consciousness can exist without being in a body, who didn't believe in life before life, and who didn't believe in life after death. These prejudices completely distorted his psychological conclusions. Mystics and mediums have been persecuted by the psychological community ever since because of the twisted and inaccurate conclusions within Freudian psychology. They espouse, even today, that clairaudience, clairsentience, and clairvoyance are all products of a delusional personality. Belief and/or experience with telekinesis are, what they term, a product of "magical thinking."

In contrast to what Sigmund Freud espoused, when we go to sleep at night, one part of our brain does not activate to produce dreams for us. What really happens is that we become more receptive to telepathic messages from one or more discarnates or spirits, that are usually symbolically represented. Most dreams are not helpful or spiritual in nature because most of the people on The Other Side, as with This Side, are not devoted to The Light. Nightmares are a form of astral abuse or attack, not a product of the brain.

As a spiritual medium, I've had situations whereby I would "talk" with a Spirit Guide in my sleep. To then wake up and continue the conversation.

As a general rule of thumb, beyond the understanding of the psychological community...

Every thought or feeling that is not willfully created, is telepathically received from one or more discarnates or spirits. There are no exceptions to this general telepathic principle of metaphysics.

Knowing this completely changes one's perspective. Each time a thought or feeling "just pops in there" know that it is coming from The Other Side.

In light of this, there are no "products of the subconscious." As the subconscious does not exist.