Is Evil Necessary In Order To Know Good?

Originally Posted by howiemac

so you don't go with Jesus on loving your enemy and turning the other cheek? i think that would be Gandhi's line too, and one i aspire too (i may not be Christian, but i do admire the teachings of Christ). To be fair, its a very tough call indeed to love a paedophile who has abused your child.. but i still think it is the best way to go..

I spoke in my previous post about admitting that I would want to take revenge. I readily accept that that isn't 'ideal' - whilst I admit that would be my gut-reaction, I would hope that I could rise above the urge.

What I said about society confronting evil, isn't about revenge - it's about keeping innocent people safe. Protecting them.

If the said pedophile who has violated my child, was my next door neighbour, am I supposed to smile benignly at him... invite him round for tea.... ask him to babysit my children - all because I have been taught to 'turn the other cheek'?

How do you feel about the legal system in this country? Do you feel it shouldn't exist? It is there to protect people.... for example - a murder going to prison.... is that right or wrong?

actually Poppies I am fairly anarchistic - i believe in natural laws and divine justice, not man made laws and systems of 'justice', which inevitably end up being unjust in at least some cases - judging other people is a dangerous game whoever is doing it. We should judge ourselves only, and let karmic laws take care of the rest - i realise you may not believe in karma, but i do and i see it as providing divine and perfect justice for every soul in every situation.

i don't believe that anything happens randomly, or by chance - everything is for a purpose - either it is the karmic return of previous actions, or it is a test for you to see if you have learnt from previous lessons - we are each responsible for ourselves, and not for protecting others - we should judge ourselves and not others

re your hypothetical aggressor, it is not as simple as 'love your enemy' - there are times when it is necessary to be powerful and detached - when confronting evil, it is necessary to be strong and detached and face them fearlessly, or (depending on the situation) 'turn the other cheek' - they will not continue attacking indefinately - evil preys on fear and when confronted with fearless goodness will beat a hasty retreat - but if you become afraid or angry or upset or emotional in any way, you become 'dark' yourself and things will get unpleasant.... ideally we should have compassion for lost souls: not condone or encourage their behaviour, but accept that they are troubled and in need of help.

Or to look at it another way, if you don't find love in your heart for the aggressor, you will find yourself being eaten up by your emotions, anger, fear, whatever - then who has won, them or you? Even if they are locked away or executed, if you have not accepted them in your heart, then their past behaviour will continue to torment you.. so the only way to get the better of the situation is love and compassion.

Spaceman:"Say a bit more (you have me curious): how does the nature of the question effect the issue

Originally Posted by howiemac

re your hypothetical aggressor, it is not as simple as 'love your enemy' - there are times when it is necessary to be powerful and detached - when confronting evil, it is necessary to be strong and detached and face them fearlessly, or (depending on the situation) 'turn the other cheek' - they will not continue attacking indefinately - evil preys on fear and when confronted with fearless goodness will beat a hasty retreat...

But what I wrote was in response to what you said here:

Originally Posted by Poppies

What I said about society confronting evil, isn't about revenge - it's about keeping innocent people safe. Protecting them.

If the said pedophile who has violated my child, was my next door neighbour, am I supposed to smile benignly at him... invite him round for tea.... ask him to babysit my children - all because I have been taught to 'turn the other cheek'?

If you'll forgive me posing the question again... Can I ask how you'd respond to a pedophile living next door to you, who'd already violated one of your children?

but if you become afraid or angry or upset or emotional in any way, you become 'dark' yourself and things will get unpleasant.... ideally we should have compassion for lost souls: not condone or encourage their behaviour, but accept that they are troubled and in need of help.

Yes... I accept that! In the scenario that we're considering, I would accept that the pedophile was troubled and I would genuinely want him to receive the help that he needed.... but I would also wish to see my children protected from further harm.

Or to look at it another way, if you don't find love in your heart for the aggressor, you will find yourself being eaten up by your emotions, anger, fear, whatever - then who has won, them or you? Even if they are locked away or executed, if you have not accepted them in your heart, then their past behaviour will continue to torment you.. so the only way to get the better of the situation is love and compassion.

Agreed!

One Christian writer who I have a great deal of respect for is Bill Huebsch. He wrote this about forgiveness:

Jesus forgave them,
which is to say that he
gave up any claims that he had on them
for the pain
embarrassment
falsh charges
and even death
that they caused him.
He gave up his claims on them,
which means that he held nothing against them,
which is the key part of forgiveness.

Jesus' forgivemenss of them
was a powerful,
creative act.

Pilate once told Jesus,
"Don't you know that I have the power
to free you
or the power to have you killed."
Jesus responded: "You have no power over me."

When Jesus said that,
this is what he was talking about.
By forgiving them,
Jesus gave them no power.
Even as they were acting,
even as they were exercising their "power,"
Jesus was taking it all away from them
was rendering them powerless.
What could they do to him?"

That passage is one that I bring to mind a lot - it is very meaningful to me! :)

On the subject of 'loving your enemy' I thought I'd share this poem from Caitanya Mahaprabhu (b. 1486) in Bengal, India, who began the 'modern' form of the Hare Krishna movement.

"One should chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street; one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and should be ready to offer all respect to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly."

Lord Caitanya taught that we should tolerate any form of injustice against OURSELVES and turn the other cheek, just as Jesus Christ taught. But if someone is causing an injustice to someone else, especially someone in your care. Then to tolerate that injustice is totally incorrect. Although we should not develop hatred within our heart, still sometimes we have to act to defend others even if it causes harm to the offender.

Poppies - i really like the quote you gave from Bill Huebsch. I believe that we are all indestructible eternal souls, beings of light, who simply inhabit bodies like costumes for the experience of it - from this perspective, there is never anything to be afraid of, and the natural state to be in is loving and forgiving.

Originally Posted by Poppies

Can I ask how you'd respond to a pedophile living next door to you, who'd already violated one of your children?

well.. this whole question has been exercising my mind considerably since i made that last post - i really like what DASA has just posted

Originally Posted by DASA

Lord Caitanya taught that we should tolerate any form of injustice against OURSELVES and turn the other cheek, just as Jesus Christ taught. But if someone is causing an injustice to someone else, especially someone in your care. Then to tolerate that injustice is totally incorrect. Although we should not develop hatred within our heart, still sometimes we have to act to defend others even if it causes harm to the offender.

and that has made things clearer - so yes i agree with you that there are circumstances where action is required, but the actions should be good actions and not driven by fear, anger or other negative emotion....

actually i would probably move house - i have had neighbours from hell before, and i moved house then - did the trick for me - when you are too close to such a situation you are liable to react badly and just dig yourself in deeper - the situation takes over control of you

having had time to consider this further, what would you do?

[quote=howiemac]

[quote=Space_Man]
But, to my mind, that would mean that evil

"we are here to experience things - i guess the point of evil is that it enables us to appreciate good by contrast... "

From the point of view of Vedic knowledge I'd agree with that statement. If He wanted to, God could do anything - He is The Supreme Controller ('Ishvara'). However, this world is described as a 'correctional facility', not a heaven. It's said that we have to suffer sometimes because of our past actions - just like a child who gets told off by their parents, they might not enjoy being re-buked but it's for their own good in the long-run. ;-)

[quote=howiemac]As i see it, we do the bad stuff, not God.. we create the mess by our own divine wills, God just watches detached