Ethics: Benefit and Harm

[Gem]

You know that saying 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'? It's true. For example, the Christian missions in 20th century Australia were well intended, but they were instrumental in undermining the Aboriginal cultures, and caused great harm. This means your good intentions are your intentions and are not the intentions of another person, and acting on good intentions is just an excuse for imposing one's own intentions on others.

This is where one has to understand ethics - because good intentions are potentially harmful, and often are, hence the saying I mentioned above. People mistake ethics for morals, but morals are values based on beliefs and cultural norms etc, while ethics are grounded in the real world of benefit and harm, and frankly, imposing ones own moral values on others is invariably disrespectful and paternalistic, as the missionary treatment of Aboriginal peoples demonstrates.

Ethics is complicated because benefit and harm isn't so cut and dried. Often one person's benefit is at the expense of others. Sometimes an action in one circumstance is harmful, but in a different scenario the same action is beneficial. Sometimes things look harmful or risky on the surface, but there is a deeper aspect of benefit involved underneath.

I wonder where it starts, and I suggest it begins with having respect, understanding that 'my good intentions' have nothing to do with what others intend. To benefit others I'd have to understand what they think is best, what they want for themselves, and what their moral values are. To respect that difference and afford the dignity that a person has a right to manage their life in their own way according to their own values - and not my way according to my values, or what I think is best.

[Floatsy]

A great perspective. I always wondered why people were killing each other in the name of God, or why pro-life activists would see fit to murder in the name of life.

In my opinion, there was no better solution than to manifest Ultimate Truth, .. but I really like and appreciate your viewpoints herein. Self-reflection and modification of attitude is also fundamental.

Thanks for your post, Gem.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Floatsy

A great perspective. I always wondered why people were killing each other in the name of God, or why pro-life activists would see fit to murder in the name of life.

In my opinion, there was no better solution than to manifest Ultimate Truth, .. but I really like and appreciate your viewpoints herein. Self-reflection and modification of attitude is also fundamental.

Thanks for your post, Gem.

Where there is supposed to be an ultimate truth, knowers impose it over the ignorant, and over-lording of the truth is very problematic in terms of power imbalances in human relationships.

I would suggest that when a person makes claim to ultimate truth they also assume a position of absolute power and influence. We see people drinking the Kool-Aid all the time under such notions - as well as killing each-other under God's truth.

The truth is a matter of the integrity, dignity and respect on which ethics are founded. These aren't arrived at as a matter of conclusion, but rather we have a sense for them as intangible qualities that transcend intellectualism. Ethics operates at that sublime level, and instead of being morally codified so they can be learned and known, ethics arise from unknowable yet mutual humanity.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

You know that saying 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'? It's true. For example, the Christian missions in 20th century Australia were well intended, but they were instrumental in undermining the Aboriginal cultures, and caused great harm. This means your good intentions are your intentions and are not the intentions of another person, and acting on good intentions is just an excuse for imposing one's own intentions on others.

This is where one has to understand ethics - because good intentions are potentially harmful, and often are, hence the saying I mentioned above. People mistake ethics for morals, but morals are values based on beliefs and cultural norms etc, while ethics are grounded in the real world of benefit and harm, and frankly, imposing ones own moral values on others is invariably disrespectful and paternalistic, as the missionary treatment of Aboriginal peoples demonstrates.

Ethics is complicated because benefit and harm isn't so cut and dried. Often one person's benefit is at the expense of others. Sometimes an action in one circumstance is harmful, but in a different scenario the same action is beneficial. Sometimes things look harmful or risky on the surface, but there is a deeper aspect of benefit involved underneath.

I wonder where it starts, and [b]I suggest it begins with having respect, understanding that 'my good intentions' have nothing to do with what others intend. To benefit others I'd have to understand what they think is best, what they want for themselves, and what their moral values are. To respect that difference and afford the dignity that a person has a right to manage their life in their own way according to their own values - and not my way according to my values, or what I think is best.

Yes I see your point and your right. If we apply this as our starting point, one can often gauge at that point what kind of bridge can be built with a more inclusive awareness of another's needs and values.

Its difficult one also, because sometimes values are skewed with a lot of other stuff intermixed. So even with respect and acceptance of others values, their is often a whole host of things moving through the whole that interferes with the intended process in this way. So it may be turn into a more complex consideration in this way.

And often, it reveals itself down the track as you show with the plight of the Aboriginals. The affects of decisions that are often made without the complete picture or deeper considerations, will reflect that lack as one in some way.

I guess being human, we all learn as we go, sometimes we learn the hard/painful ways, sometimes we learn in more loving/caring ways. I guess we can only come together more in the space of deeper understanding and awareness of others regardless of what they are being and doing and what they know or don't know.






"I know nothing of you until you show me, you"

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Gem

You know that saying 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'? It's true. For example, the Christian missions in 20th century Australia were well intended, but they were instrumental in undermining the Aboriginal cultures, and caused great harm. This means your good intentions are your intentions and are not the intentions of another person, and acting on good intentions is just an excuse for imposing one's own intentions on others.

This is where one has to understand ethics - because good intentions are potentially harmful, and often are, hence the saying I mentioned above. People mistake ethics for morals, but morals are values based on beliefs and cultural norms etc, while ethics are grounded in the real world of benefit and harm, and frankly, imposing ones own moral values on others is invariably disrespectful and paternalistic, as the missionary treatment of Aboriginal peoples demonstrates.

Ethics is complicated because benefit and harm isn't so cut and dried. Often one person's benefit is at the expense of others. Sometimes an action in one circumstance is harmful, but in a different scenario the same action is beneficial. Sometimes things look harmful or risky on the surface, but there is a deeper aspect of benefit involved underneath.

I wonder where it starts, and I suggest it begins with having respect, understanding that 'my good intentions' have nothing to do with what others intend. To benefit others I'd have to understand what they think is best, what they want for themselves, and what their moral values are. To respect that difference and afford the dignity that a person has a right to manage their life in their own way according to their own values - and not my way according to my values, or what I think is best.

When talking about this subject I think it's important to remember that the base of nature, that we all live in is one of a power game. We are wrestling with everything, that's my way of saying dhukka. There was no fairness, each individual in this particular world is autonomous in the sense that their own ability is fundamentally what they are.

With that in mind I think that choices happen as naturally as clouds happen, and it is both our right and curse to be our selves only true responsibility. This truth is something we need to accept about humanity, that the winners will always have losers, and there will always be a challenger. This is a combative world, and much of spirituality is an attempt to remove the fear.

I think the answer to ethics is do what you would do, if you were fearless.

[Tanemon]

Originally Posted by Gem

To benefit others I'd have to understand what they think is best, what they want for themselves, and what their moral values are. To respect that difference and afford the dignity that a person has a right to manage their life in their own way according to their own values - and not my way according to my values, or what I think is best.

I'm seen by most people as quite tolerant - and interested in others' points of view, value systems, and so forth. Yet I realize that there are groups (the Taliban and the KKK would be examples) who are adamant in their outlooks and values ("what they think is best") and whose values I might never sympathize with or respect. Still, I do not seem to have to come into contact with these people.

It's not my role in life to interfere with the many groups of this sort, yet my opinions about them are less than supportive. And I can understand the complexities when governments and modern law-makers are obliged to confront these people. Also, hmm, I do wonder how happy the women are, living in communities where the Taliban have taken over.

[Floatsy]

Originally Posted by Gem

Where there is supposed to be an ultimate truth, knowers impose it over the ignorant, and over-lording of the truth is very problematic in terms of power imbalances in human relationships.

I would suggest that when a person makes claim to ultimate truth they also assume a position of absolute power and influence. We see people drinking the Kool-Aid all the time under such notions - as well as killing each-other under God's truth.

The truth is a matter of the integrity, dignity and respect on which ethics are founded. These aren't arrived at as a matter of conclusion, but rather we have a sense for them as intangible qualities that transcend intellectualism. Ethics operates at that sublime level, and instead of being morally codified so they can be learned and known, ethics arise from unknowable yet mutual humanity.

That's because you assume that Ultimate Truth is exclusive.

You assert that this understanding equates to dominance, belief and rigidity when my experience of these people equate to selflessness, compassion and understanding.

IOW, you'd have to know it to understand what is being said.

Ethics is a codified belief system, in Middle Eastern countries, it might be ethical to not wear a short skirt, for example. The Salem Witch trials saw fit to put people to death for being morally corrupt, and possibly doing Devil-ry. IOW, as long as things are in the realm of belief, all sorts of trickery is possible. Even for those with "good intentions", hence the road to hell.

Ultimate Truth is not different to the realizations of Saints in all Contemplative traditions, and to mistake it for belief is a mistake in my viewpoint. That being said, you would be harkened to hear that most who see this don't try to impose, but they certainly have spoken (Rumi, Eckhart, Buddha, Jesus etc.)

[ocean breeze]

Posting to say i agree with the original post, and have experienced this plenty of times. I often become frustrated when people try to impose their good values and intentions on to me or someone else. I believe i expressed this frustration on this forum on another thread, not too long ago.

I would suggest that when a person makes claim to ultimate truth they also assume a position of absolute power and influence. We see people drinking the Kool-Aid all the time under such notions - as well as killing each-other under God's truth.

Yep

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Floatsy

That's because you assume that Ultimate Truth is exclusive.

You assert that this understanding equates to dominance, belief and rigidity when my experience of these people equate to selflessness, compassion and understanding

IOW, you'd have to know it to understand what is being said.

I understand the truth as being honest and sincere.

Ethics is a codified belief system, in Middle Eastern countries, it might be ethical to not wear a short skirt, for example. The Salem Witch trials saw fit to put people to death for being morally corrupt, and possibly doing Devil-ry. IOW, as long as things are in the realm of belief, all sorts of trickery is possible. Even for those with "good intentions", hence the road to hell.

Ultimate Truth is not different to the realizations of Saints in all Contemplative traditions, and to mistake it for belief is a mistake in my viewpoint. That being said, you would be harkened to hear that most who see this don't try to impose, but they certainly have spoken (Rumi, Eckhart, Buddha, Jesus etc.)

[Floatsy]

Originally Posted by Gem

I understand the truth as being honest and sincere.

Ethics operates at that sublime level, and instead of being morally codified so they can be learned and known, ethics arise from unknowable yet mutual humanity.

True equality, my One, called it.

From genuine equality, all life is possible...

Whilst there are many charlatans and power-seekers, knowingly or unwittingly themselves, I am forever grateful for those that showed me what is possible - with love, a different way of being, choice, encouragement, kindness and possibility beyond my prior imagination.

From Love that is Equality, how could you doubt such kindness?

Perhaps I have been blessed herein. My doubt on such Ones does not exist, the cake is so, the air is sweet, nor have I lost my mind